Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[N8Ball]

By your logic, you would knock the target prone but whiff on the attack.

No, by my logic, Precision kicks in and the hit doesn't happen, and therefore the critical hit is never registered, so the feat can't take effect.

Wait, so you're saying that when you ""score a critical hit" but miss that you don't get to do things that trigger on "scoring a critical hit"?

Your interpretation here seems rife with contradiction. Either you satisfied the feat by scoring a critical hit, or you didn't because you didn't score a critical hit, in which case precision should have never been referenced.

As far as I can tell, Samir's arguments here are the logical conclusions for your interpretation on the subject. With this interpretation there are unintended effects of scoring a critical hit, missing but still kicking off feats and abilities. That doesn't seem right and will require some effort to explain or explain away as you prefer.

But with any attack, you scored the critical hit or you didn't.

There are other unintended consequences with the "crit and miss" concept as well, like magical crit damage kicking in on powers that have miss damage. The requirements of "Critical" under the magic item section are simply that you score a critical hit and deal damage. SO, any power with miss damage could add the enhancement bonus on a crit and miss. The section makes no mention of hitting.

Precision is a rule that governs all effects that allow you to score critical hits on non-20 numbers. Holy Ardor is such an ability.

Precision is not a rule in and of itself. It's a reminder of another rule on the previous page. Yes, precision refers to Holy Ardor, but "Automatic hit" rules don't do anything to deny Holy Ardor from achieving a crit. It doesn't even deny hits at all, it grants them when you roll a 20, nothing more.

The rule in question (automatic hit) only provides for HITS on a 20. Holy Ardor covers completely different situations and provides new requirements (not automatic) to achieve Critical hits.

Samir is correct to point out that Holy Ardor bypasses all other requirements for achieving a crit. And even if you think precision enforces a check after you crit, (which I think is out of order) It still doesn't do anything because the Automatic hit rule doesn't deny hits, it only grants them.

You say our interpretation allows "automatic hits". I think it allows critical hits when you satisfy some new requirements.

 

[Dan'L]

It doesn't have to, because it says you score a critical hit, which means you deal maximum damage.

This is an unsupported claim. Let's walk through what we have from the actual rules.

1) As per the specific rules governing crits, on p. 278 of the PHB, scoring a critical hit, which is allowed might occur through features such as Holy Ardor (Precision), means you calculate the maximum damage.

2) According to these same rules, you do not get to apply the maximum damage to an attack that does not otherwise deal damage (Maximum Damage.)

3) An attack which satisfies the Miss requirements, as defined on p. 276 as an attack roll* lower than the target's defense, does not (normally) otherwise deal damage.

4) Principally only an attack which satisfies the Hit requirements on p. 276 deals damage (unless the specific attack contains "miss" or other effect riders that supersede this)

5) The only ways given for an attack to satisfy the Hit requirements are:
A) by your attack roll* equalling/exceeding the target's defense
B) by achieving an automatic hit (defined on p. 276 as rolling a 20, and restated on p. 278 as the only way to achieve an automatic hit.)

6) Scoring Critical Hits are expressly stated in these specific governing rules as not being sufficient to meeting the Hit requirements (Precision), and expressly stated as not being sufficient to uniquely allow damage to be assigned (Maximum Damage)

7) Since a Critical Hit is in itself insufficient for uniquely allowing damage assignation, and the specific feature Holy Ardor also does not include an overriding rule or clause that allows it, we must pursue the general governing rules: "Hit" and "Miss"

8) Oath of Enmity provides a means for determining a number to use for your attack roll, and the Hit and Miss rules provide a means of interpreting that roll.

9) Therefore it is possible that you satisfy both the requirements for scoring a Critical Hit, as given by Holy Ardor, and the requirements for a Miss, as outlined by the Attack Results section of the PHB.

10) Since the rules governing a Critical Hit specify that you do not get to apply your Critical Hit damage on attacks that don't deal damage, and an attack which is a Miss is typically an attack that doesn't deal damage, it is possible to score a Critical Hit with Holy Ardor which is also a Miss, and therefore does not deal damage.

*an attack roll is defined on p. 276 as the total of the d20 roll plus all attendant bonuses.

-Dan'L

 

[N8Ball]

...it says you score a critical hit, which means you deal maximum damage.

This is an unsupported claim.

Samir's claim is supported by my arguments and examples in previous posts. And crits do deal "Maximum Damage" as defined by the section of the same name under crits. But as you point out, "Maximum damage" can still be 0.

I do appreciate your logical walk through though. It really helps to see where our thought processes match and diverge.

I was hanging in there with you right up till here:

6) Scoring Critical Hits are expressly stated in these specific governing rules as not being sufficient to meeting the Hit requirements (Precision), and expressly stated as not being sufficient to uniquely allow damage to be assigned (Maximum Damage)

I need to address the two parts of this out of order. Simple stuff first.

We agree that sometimes a crit's "maximum damage" is 0, like with Beacon of Hope because it doesn't do any damage in the first place, but that's still "Maximum Damage" as defined by that section, and the only reason to reference that section is if you got a crit. So with beacon, you didn't deal damage (you never do with that power), but you did get a crit.

On a more careful reading of precision, I think you will agree that it's saying that "some class features and powers" (that affect crit requirements) do not change the "automatic hit" rules. Precision doesn't talk about normal hit requirements, it talks about a rule that allows hits under certain narrow criteria (20s).

But you're right, Precision does draw a line between crit requirements (and their modification) and automatic hit rules. And satisfying one does not necessarily satisfy the other.

7) Since a Critical Hit is in itself insufficient for uniquely allowing damage assignation, ....we must pursue the general governing rules: "Hit" and "Miss"

This doesn't make sense to me either.
So you're saying here that because come crits don't assign damage (a result that we get to by reading "maximum damage" after getting a crit.) That we should apply the normal hit and miss rules?
I don't track that logic at all.

There are other things I don't follow or agree with, but I think they are the fruit of the same disagreement-tree, so I'll stop with these two objections, I think they're foundational since they speak to when you have achieved a crit and what happens when you do.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

The Critical Hit rules specifically only apply damage if the roll is in fact a hit.

The basic Critical Hit rules only apply maximum damage if the hit result is a Natural 20.

You can "score a critical hit" and yet not "score a critical hit" this is covered by the "Natural 20" rule.

With abilities that allow you to "score a critical hit" on a roll other than 20 (ie the various 18-20 result feats, items, powers etc) you still can fail to hit, and thus fail to "score a critical hit" on results other than a 20.

Holy Ardor fits well within the scope of this, roll a double number and "score a critical hit" this may in fact fail to hit and thus "fail to score a critical hit".

Nothing in Holy Ardor creates an exception to the hit and miss rules (the most general rules on attack success or failure). Nothing in Holy Ardor makes an exception to the Automatic Hit rules. As a result nothing in Holy Ardor creates a the wished for "Automatic Crit".

The power clarifies that its exception to the need for a Natural 20 to start checking for a critical hit does not also create an exception to the Natrual 1 rule.

The fact it is an exlicit exception to the Natural 20 rule to start checking for a Critical Hit, is why the Precision rule applies to it (because that is what Precision says it is for).

 

[Flipguarder]

This is all very simple. Can anyone explain to me how Holy Ardor changes a critical hit, which regardless of your opinion is not an automatic hit, into an automatic hit?

 

[CovertOps]

Ok...I surrender. Precision is not a rule it is just a reminder of the normal hit/miss rules.

Hit: If the attack roll is higher than or equal to the defense score, the attack hits and deals damage, has a special effect, or both.
Automatic Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack automatically hits.
Critical Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack might be a critical hit (page 278).
A critical hit deals maximum damage, and some powers and magic items have an extra effect on a critical hit.

Critical hit here is clearly indented and subservient to Hit.

1. Using OoE roll 2 dice and pick the larger of the 2 results (at this point it does not matter if you roll doubles).
2. Add your bonuses and check the targets defense to determine if you hit the target.
3. IF you indeed hit now go back and check if you rolled doubles (Holy Ardor), or rolled a 20.

I can't believe you all think that Holy Ardor allows you to ignore this.

 

[keterys]

You guys aren't going to see eye to eye on this one.

One side goes 'Okay, here's a rule. This Holy Ardor thing doesn't bypass that rule. Too bad.' and the other goes 'Okay, here's Holy Ardor which trumps those other rules, so what's the problem?'

You're not going to get around that, so you may as well just stop. Eventually it'll get FAQed. That's a good thing that will come of this.

 

[N8Ball]

Critical hit here is clearly indented and subservient to Hit.

I missed this fact before, but this is a pretty relevant observation.

We already agree that Hit and Miss are mutually exclusive events. Nobody is arguing that a hit can be a miss.

And Critical hit is indented under Hit implying that it is a subset of Hit. The section does not fully describe how to get a crit, only that you might have one. But "Critical hit" is under Hit as a possible outcome, not under miss.

**Just like an "automatic hit" (another subset of hits) sometimes also qualifies for the miss rules, we know that they are not misses because it's a subset of hit and cannot also be a miss. This may seem too elementary, but the logic that applies to one subset also applies to the other.

The section does not say anything like this. The words "score a critical hit" are surrounded by 2 "if" statements, both of which are required before you "score a critical hit". So you either met both requirements or you didn't. there is no language allowing X and not X. The second reference to "score a critical hit" simply references "automatic hit" when one of the previous two stated requirements isn't met (and therefore didn't crit).

 

[Artoomis]

There are two ways to look at this, and, until WotC formally weighs in on this (by a FAQ entry or a rules update) both are correct in that they are defensible by RAW:

1. The more conservative approach is to say that Holy Ardor simply creates a new way to score a potential critical hit, but that the number on the doubles roll still needs to be a hit before it can actually score critical hit.

2. Holy Ardor is a new rule that creates a heretofore unprecedented new mechanic for scoring a critical hit with no need to have the doubles roll be a hit before scoring a critical hit.

The second is the way the Holy Ardor text comes across, the first has its basis in the Critical Hit rule.

Until WotC formally clarifies this, both are correct, so this goes in the category of ask your DM, even if playing an RPGA game.

 

[Samir]

<snip>

This is an interesting thought process. I have some issues with this but N8Ball has already covered those, so I'll just add that this would entail a large number of inconsistencies.

If we choose to follow this process, rolling doubles that are too low to hit causes you to score a critical hit that deals maximum damage of zero--but still triggers any kind of on-hit and on-crit ability. Feats that trigger when you "score a critical hit" would still activate, with rather strange results.

You can "score a critical hit" and yet not "score a critical hit" this is covered by the "Natural 20" rule.

This appears to be a point of confusion. It is impossible to simultaneously score a critical hit and also not score a critical hit. You can roll a critical hit without scoring one, but Holy Ardor specifically says you "score a critical hit," which means you've succeeded and therefore you deal maximum damage.

This is all very simple. Can anyone explain to me how Holy Ardor changes a critical hit, which regardless of your opinion is not an automatic hit, into an automatic hit?

It doesn't. It "scores a critical hit," which by definition means you deal maximum damage. There's no mention of automatic hit because there doesn't need to be.

Critical hit here is clearly indented and subservient to Hit.

1. Using OoE roll 2 dice and pick the larger of the 2 results (at this point it does not matter if you roll doubles).
2. Add your bonuses and check the targets defense to determine if you hit the target.
3. IF you indeed hit now go back and check if you rolled doubles (Holy Ardor), or rolled a 20.

I can't believe you all think that Holy Ardor allows you to ignore this.

I'll refer to my previous example. If a power said "if you roll a 1, you can hit" would it ignore miss-on-a-1? Yes. If it said "if you roll a 1, you hit" would it ignore both that rule and beat-their-defense? Sure. The first power allows you to hit when you normally couldn't, and the second causes you to hit when you normally wouldn't.

So if a feature says "if you roll doubles, you score a critical hit," what happens when you roll doubles? You score a critical hit.

You guys aren't going to see eye to eye on this one.

One side goes 'Okay, here's a rule. This Holy Ardor thing doesn't bypass that rule. Too bad.' and the other goes 'Okay, here's Holy Ardor which trumps those other rules, so what's the problem?'

You're not going to get around that, so you may as well just stop. Eventually it'll get FAQed. That's a good thing that will come of this.

In a nutshell. At this point I think it's just discussion for the sake of discussion. It's absolutely impossible to prove one way or another because of the way the ability is phrased.