Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Samir]

Given the CustServ response, any reason this really needs to continue?

If CS responses mattered, this would have ended 8 pages ago.

 

[DracoSuave]

It seems pretty clear to me.

That's because you omitted the paragraph in between.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

So, how is it clear to you that this paragraph doesn't apply?

 

[N8Ball]

Does Holy Ardor SPECIFICALLY give a way to ignore either the automatic hit rule.....

Holy Ardor does not need to because we already have situations where you can crit or just hit without ignoring it. Holy Ardor can do the same without ignoring it or changing it.

....or the Precision rule and provide alternate rules to use in their place?

Precision is not ignored either, since it simply states that "precision" feats and features (that are described by precision) do not change the automatic hit rules. Holy Ardor does not ignore it or change it in any way, a 20 is still the only way to get an "Automatic hit".

I think I've found a few more foundational ways where we're not agreeing.

1) Automatic Crit - this is not a game term (since it's not defined), so it can't really be required to be said. In this case "automatic" is just an adjective that amplifies but has no rules backup.

2) The idea that an Automatic hit is the only way to get a hit that doesn't have a good enough attack roll. OR

3) That any attack that doesn't have a good enough attack roll MUST MISS unless the power says "Automatic hit".

The problem with that idea is that these restriction are not explicitly expressed in any rules, and they are materially different than saying that a 20 is the only way to a automatic hit.

The standard or modified rules may come to these conclusions by other means, but those restrictions (2&3) don't really exist anywhere in print.

 

[Samir]

That's because you omitted the paragraph in between.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

So, how is it clear to you that this paragraph doesn't apply?

Because that paragraph applies to the test that Holy Ardor neatly skips. "Score a critical hit" does not mean you are still checking to see if your roll beats their defense, it means that you have succeeded and are dealing maximum damage. Holy Ardor outright states that given a double roll, you score a critical hit. Not "can" score. You score it.

Let's take an analogy. Say you have an attack power that says "if you roll a 1, you hit." If that power said "if you roll a 1, you can hit" then you'd still have to check to see if you manage to hit their defense, because the only rule it's contradicting is the "always miss on a 1" rule. But since it says "if you roll a 1, you hit," you don't need to check that at all. You skip that part. If you roll a 1, you hit.

Similarly, if you roll doubles, you score a critical hit. You skip the test because you've already succeeded it.

 

[DracoSuave]

Similarly, if you roll doubles, you score a critical hit. You skip the test because you've already succeeded it.

the 2 Counter arguments:

1)

If you have a condition that says you are not allowed to move, and you are hit with a power that says you shift 5 spaces, you do not move an inch.

You do not conveniently get to ignore things that deny you benefits simply because the ability itself neglects to include the word 'can.' There are examples of this above.

2)

Precision is a rule that governs all effects that allow you to score critical hits on non-20 numbers. Holy Ardor is such an ability. Therefore Precision -directly- affects it because it is one of the rules for the term 'score a critical hit' and help define what it does, and does not do.

 

[Samir]

the 2 Counter arguments:

1)

If you have a condition that says you are not allowed to move, and you are hit with a power that says you shift 5 spaces, you do not move an inch.

You do not conveniently get to ignore things that deny you benefits simply because the ability itself neglects to include the word 'can.' There are examples of this above.

This is a reasonable argument, but the problem is that it's far from a hard and fast rule. There are simply way too many powers that do not function according to this. For example, Polearm Gamble:

Polearm Gamble
Prerequisites: Str 15, Wis 15
Benefit: When a nonadjacent enemy enters a
square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity
attack with a polearm against that enemy, but you
grant combat advantage to that enemy until the end of
the enemy’s turn.

vs.

FORCED MOVEMENT
✦ No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does
not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity
actions.

Yet if a nonadjacent enemy is pushed/pulled/slided into a square adjacent to you, it triggers Polearm Gamble and you can make an opportunity attack.

2)

Precision is a rule that governs all effects that allow you to score critical hits on non-20 numbers. Holy Ardor is such an ability. Therefore Precision -directly- affects it because it is one of the rules for the term 'score a critical hit' and help define what it does, and does not do.

Not quite. Precision tells you how you can score a critical hit. Holy Ardor says you score a critical hit. Plus, Precision doesn't define "scoring a critical hit," it tells you how you can achieve it. If a feat or power or PP feature causes you (not allows you, causes you) to score a critical hit, Precision is skipped entirely, just like a feat that grants you an opportunity attack doesn't really care about the other ways to get opportunity attacks.

"Score a critical hit" is defined fairly clearly, but not by Precision. When you score a critical hit, you deal maximum damage. With Holy Ardor, when you roll doubles, you score a critical hit and deal maximum damage.

Let's look at a different feat for a second.

Surprise Knockdown [Rogue]
Prerequisites: Str 15, rogue
Benefit: If you score a critical hit while you have
combat advantage, you knock the target prone.

So imagine you roll double 2s and you have combat advantage. Holy Ardor says "you score a critical hit." Surprise Knockdown says when you score a critical hit, you knock the target prone.

By your logic, you would knock the target prone but whiff on the attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

This is a reasonable argument, but the problem is that it's far from a hard and fast rule. There are simply way too many powers that do not function according to this. For example, Polearm Gamble:



vs.



Yet if a nonadjacent enemy is pushed/pulled/slided into a square adjacent to you, it triggers Polearm Gamble and you can make an opportunity attack.

No it doesn't. Polearm Gamble is an opportunity action. Nothing forced movement can do will trigger it. So this is a terrible example. Neither does teleportation.

Not quite. Precision tells you how you can score a critical hit. Holy Ardor says you score a critical hit. Plus, Precision doesn't define "scoring a critical hit," it tells you how you can achieve it. If a feat or power or PP feature causes you (not allows you, causes you) to score a critical hit, Precision is skipped entirely, just like a feat that grants you an opportunity attack doesn't really care about the other ways to get opportunity attacks.

A feat that grants you an opportunity attack must follow all the rules for opportunity attacks. Holy Ardor allows you to score a critical hit. It permits it. It says 'You are allowed to do this action.' Precision -blatantly- applies.

Are you saying that a feat that grants you an opportunity attack ignores feats that modify opportunity attacks? Of course not.

"Score a critical hit" is defined fairly clearly, but not by Precision. When you score a critical hit, you deal maximum damage. With Holy Ardor, when you roll doubles, you score a critical hit and deal maximum damage.

Let's look at a different feat for a second.

But you can only hit with a natural 20. The rules are -very- explicit about that, and Holy Ardor does NOT say you hit.

So imagine you roll double 2s and you have combat advantage. Holy Ardor says "you score a critical hit." Surprise Knockdown says when you score a critical hit, you knock the target prone.

By your logic, you would knock the target prone but whiff on the attack.

No, by my logic, Precision kicks in and the hit doesn't happen, and therefore the critical hit is never registered, so the feat can't take effect.

There are other examples of this in the rules. Dwarves can prevent pushes. Said pushes do not need to say 'You may push 4 squares' for the Dwarf ability to apply. The Dwarf bonus simply -applies- to all instances where you are pushed a certain number of squares.

You cannot choose to ignore rules without an explicit exception. There is no exception to the critical hit rules spelt out in Holy Ardor. If it implied you automaticly hit, it would say so, using plain language. It would say, 'you hit, and that hit scores a critical hit' or what have you. But it does not actually say, nor claim, you -automaticly hit- nor does it imply that a hit is automatic.

It merely states a condition where you can score critical hits, and assumes you follow the rules for critical hits, as does every other ability in the game that does not state an exception.

 

[Samir]

No it doesn't. Polearm Gamble is an opportunity action. Nothing forced movement can do will trigger it. So this is a terrible example. Neither does teleportation.

Correction: forced movement does not provoke an opportunity attack. Provoking an opportunity attack is a specific event which involves leaving a threatened square and a few other situations. Polearm Gamble says nothing about provoking or threatening a square. It has a trigger, and it even uses the "enters" term rather than the "moves" term, which means that it functions on forced movement.

This gets even more muddy with Agile Opportunist.

A feat that grants you an opportunity attack must follow all the rules for opportunity attacks. Holy Ardor allows you to score a critical hit. It permits it. It says 'You are allowed to do this action.' Precision -blatantly- applies.

No, it does not say "you are allowed to do this action." It says "you do this action."

Are you saying that a feat that grants you an opportunity attack ignores feats that modify opportunity attacks? Of course not.

No, but it ignores the other ways to get opportunity attacks, which are irrelevant to that feat.

But you can only hit with a natural 20. The rules are -very- explicit about that, and Holy Ardor does NOT say you hit.

It doesn't have to, because it says you score a critical hit, which means you deal maximum damage.

No, by my logic, Precision kicks in and the hit doesn't happen, and therefore the critical hit is never registered, so the feat can't take effect.

There is no time for the game to do this. Precision can't "kick in" because you have already scored a critical hit. Precision describes how to score a critical hit, and thus happens only before you score it. If Precision "kicked in" after you scored a critical hit, rolling a natural 20 would result in an infinite loop where you score a critical hit, it's validated by Precision, therefore you score it, therefore it's validated by Precision...

You cannot choose to ignore rules without an explicit exception. There is no exception to the critical hit rules spelt out in Holy Ardor. If it implied you automaticly hit, it would say so, using plain language. It would say, 'you hit, and that hit scores a critical hit' or what have you. But it does not actually say, nor claim, you -automaticly hit- nor does it imply that a hit is automatic.

If the dev team were perfect, perhaps. As it is, RAW, you score a critical hit. You don't need the words "automatically hit" any more than you need it in my previous example of "if you roll a 1, you hit."

It merely states a condition where you can score critical hits, and assumes you follow the rules for critical hits, as does every other ability in the game that does not state an exception.

On the contrary, it doesn't state a condition where you can score a critical hit--it sets up a trigger that causes you to score a critical hit. It certainly assumes you follow the rules for critical hits (deal maximum damage and roll any extra damage dice), but at the point that you score the critical hit, how you did it is irrelevant.

 

[Trebor62]

Holy Ardor does include one exception. That is a double 1's fail to score a critical under it. Now if it was neccessary to roll doubles that hit the targets defense under Holy Ardor the 1's exception would be redundent as 1's always miss. Instead Holy Ardor should read you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll and you hit the targets defense. It does not. It says you score a critical if you roll doubles except for double 1's. As I see it Holy Ardor means that any double but 1's is a critical hit weither it hits the targets defense or not in which case including the double 1's misses does something, or else it is poorly written and you do need to hit the targets defense and the inclusion of the double 1's exception was unneccessary and does nothing for Holy Ardor that having to hit the targets defense would already covers.

 

[DracoSuave]

Holy Ardor does include one exception. That is a double 1's fail to score a critical under it. Now if it was neccessary to roll doubles that hit the targets defense under Holy Ardor the 1's exception would be redundent as 1's always miss. Instead Holy Ardor should read you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll and you hit the targets defense. It does not. It says you score a critical if you roll doubles except for double 1's. As I see it Holy Ardor means that any double but 1's is a critical hit weither it hits the targets defense or not in which case including the double 1's misses does something, or else it is poorly written and you do need to hit the targets defense and the inclusion of the double 1's exception was unneccessary and does nothing for Holy Ardor that having to hit the targets defense would already covers.

Or, it is there to cover the situation where you score a critical hit with a number that would hit (and therefore -successfully- hits, by the critical hit rules) but you also miss because of the double 1s rule. Neither rule acts as exception to the other, nor had the opportunity to do so before Holy Ardor, so it has to set the exception in plain text for Exception-Based design to work properly. It has nothing to do with Precision at all.

Outside of that, there's no conflict between two different sets of rules at play, so there doesn't need to be exceptions text to cover it. Precision doesn't have another rule countermanding it at that point, so you can apply it quite normally.