Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[CovertOps]

Precision applies, but gets overruled.

Yup, if you believe that criticals are a subset of hit. People claim this w/o justification other than pg 276 which isn't where criticals are defined.

Holy Ardor being or not being an attack roll..... never shows up in the first place ?

First I want to point out Kraydak that you and I are on the same side. I don't believe for a moment that Holy Ardor grants a "Hit" simply because it doesn't say that it does. For specific vs. general to work you have to provide the specific in the rule that is going to do the overriding.

I am attempting to show them just how many rules they have broken in order for their position to be correct (which is quite a few).

To me, Precision is just a reminder that if you are granted a critical hit by any other method than natural 20, you still need to hit.

Yes. Critical hits are defined on p278. References to p276 are incorrect.

The claim they made many pages back is that Precision and some of these other rules don't apply because it is not an "attack roll". That because it is not an "attack roll" it "creates an entirely new mechanic to get a critical hit and a hit". I am countering that they are correct that Holy Ardor is not an attack roll, but they made the wrong conclusion in that they cannot apply Holy Ardor to the attack resolution rules because it isn't an attack roll.

 

[Dan'L]

In the (faulty) case that critical hits are a type of hit, I already have.

Let me get this straight... you're arguing a point based upon a premise you yourself hold to be faulty? Why? There are over 500 posts that seem to indicate no "devil's advocate" is necessary here. Don't poke the bears!

-Dan'L

 

[Artoomis]

I am not sure where this will go, but I am going to address some of CovertOps points (and maybe others) by writing up an outline of the Combat chapter starting with page 269, Attacks and Defenses. Where I think it is relevant, I'll add parenthetical remarks.

Attack and Defenses (Including Making an Attack (Shaded Box))
...Attack Type
......Melee Attack
......Ranged Attack
......Close Attack
......Area Attack
......Areas of Effect
...Choosing Targets
......Range
......Seeing and Targeting
...Attack Roll
...Defenses
...Attack Results (includes shaded box defining Critical Hits)
......Damage
......Resistance and Vulnerability
......Conditions
......Insubstantial
......Ongoing Damage
......Critical Hits (explains Critical Hits in more detail that the basic definition from page 276)
......Forced Movement
...Durations
...Saving Throws
Attack Modifier (and then it goes on from there, but with nothing else relevant to Critical Hits)

Since it is relevant, a couple of quotes (copy and paste from the Rules Compendium where I could):

(page 269)
Making an Attack
All attacks follow the same basic procedure:
1. Choose that attack type...
2. Choose targets...
3. Make an attack roll
4. Compare your attack roll to the target' s defense to determine whether you hit or miss.

(page 276, Attack Results)

Hit

If the attack roll is higher than or equal to the defense score, the attack hits and deals damage, has a special effect, or both.

Automatic Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack automatically hits.

Critical Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack might be a critical hit. A critical hit deals maximum damage, and some powers and magic items have an extra effect on a critical hit.

(page 278, Critical Hit)

Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

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Interesting.

1. The general rule requires checking the results for a hit or miss.
2. The Attack Results rules on Hit (a higher level rule that Critical Hit) defines the first case where you might get a critical hit (a natural 20) and sates that a critical hit deals maximum damage (plus whatever items and powers might give you)
3. The Critical Hit rules again state the natural 20 case, and then introduce the concept (Precision) that other numbers might allow you to score a critical hit if a feature or power so stated. Precision, as a modification to the natural 20 rule fro Critical Hit, also reminds us that in this context, only a natural 20 is an automatic hit (so we don't think a 19 will hit if it does not score a critical hit).

It's worth noting that Critical Hit is in the "Hit" section under Attack Results in the intial defintion on page 276 and under "Attack Results" in the further explanation on page 278, as I think I once saw it stated, under "damage."

ALL of that material is around when one MIGHT score a critical hit and how to know if the possibility turns into an actuality.

Along comes Holy Ardor, throwing a HIUGE curve ball:

Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.

There is no wiggle room in the language. It defines an entirely new case where you score a critical hit. This is a very gigantic departure form the previous rule, but the language is clear - under these circumstances, you score a critical hit.

Now we know from page 276 that a (successful) critical hit requires you to apply critical damage, and also that it is a type of hit.

This is the simplest and most consistent way to read this. Holy Ardor simply creates a new exception to the rules - a new situation where you score a critical hit.
It's not the only way to read it, of course.

After reading all the argument, my opinion (FWIW) is:

1. The most straightforward way to read this is that Holy Ardor creates a new exception where OoE doubles = score a critical hit so long if they are not double ones. Once you "score a critical hit" you apply critical damage and any possible effects from hitting, as normal for scoring a crtical hit.

2. While I think it ignores the context of Precision, it is not completely unreasonable to view Precision as overriding Holy Ardor such that you don't get what amounts to an automatic hit from doubles. This is a possible reading of the Precision "rule" due to the imprecise nature with which that rule was written. This is the only way to override the clear "score a critical hit" language in Holy Ardor.

3. I think it is completely unreasonable and defies common sense (and the rules) to think it is possible to "score a critical hit" and yet still miss. This also potentially generates some very weird results.

 

[DracoSuave]

This is the simplest and most consistent way to read this. Holy Ardor simply creates a new exception to the rules - a new situation where you score a critical hit.
It's not the only way to read it, of course.

A situation accounted for by Precision, however. So while it is new, it is not so new it requires new rules to encapsulate it.

After reading all the argument, my opinion (FWIW) is:

1. The most straightforward way to read this is that Holy Ardor creates a new exception where OoE doubles = score a critical hit so long if they are not double ones. Once you "score a critical hit" you apply critical damage and any possible effects from hitting, as normal for scoring a crtical hit.

This has already been disproven. The situation exists outside of Precision that you still miss. Which means your hit is not guarnateed, which means it is not a contradiction of Precision, assuming the word 'can' is substantial.

Which is proven to not be the case, either.

2. While I think it ignores the context of Precision, it is not completely unreasonable to view Precision as overriding Holy Ardor such that you don't get what amounts to an automatic hit from doubles. This is a possible reading of the Precision "rule" due to the imprecise nature with which that rule was written. This is the only way to override the clear "score a critical hit" language in Holy Ardor.

The context of Precision is that it is a game rule within a list of game rules. I don't understand how it is otherwise. It's not redundant. The previous statements tell you Natural 20s score critical hits, but if you'd miss, they do not and instead deal normal damage. Precision is needed to tell you that if the range of critical hits is extended, the automatic hit range is not.

That's pretty clear, and that language doesn't exist before then. Without it, 'crit on 19-20' would overide -both- Critical Hit and Automatic Hit.

3. I think it is completely unreasonable and defies common sense (and the rules) to think it is possible to "score a critical hit" and yet still miss. This also potentially generates some very weird results.

Unfortunately, it is possible, it is proven possible, the example has been given, and it is irrational to suggest that it is otherwise.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Prove that Precision is not a rule. It looks like rules text. Smells like rules text. It has a situation, tells you what you cannot do in that situation. Specifically calls things out.

How often is rules text put into parenthesis?

Let's see ... Sustaining a Grab says you can't take opportunity actions. In parenthesis it states dazed, stunned, suprised, unconcious as examples. Since those things already say you can't take opportunity actions, this is reminder text.

Opportunity attack says that an opportunity attack is a melee basic attack and in parenthesis it says page 287, which refers it to the rules on melee basic attack.

Readying an Action, for Choose Action to Ready, in parenthesis it includes (what attack you plan to use, for example). Second Wind includes (see "Healing", page 293). Also it adds (either yours or another character's) to the statement "Some powers allow you to spend healing surges...

Squeeze clarifies after each example what it means by 'space of X' by having in parenthesis the number of squares it fills. The size/space rules exist elsewhere, but are repeated here as a reminder/clarification.

Hit poins mentions that your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit points (rounded down). Rounding down is the general rule. It is already in the rules, but refering to it helps to clarify instead of cross referencing.

In almost all cases, they are either reminders of previously stated rules, references to pages within the rules or pointing out natural consequences of said rules. In the case of Precision, it points out that while there are powers that allow you to crit on numbers other than natural 20, you still only get an automatic hit on a natural 20.

Is it necessary to have a rule that says:

(a) There are exceptions to the previous rule? When there are already rules that there can be exceptions to any rule?

(b) Exceptions to critical hits do not apply to automatic hits? This reminder text is helpful ... since it's possible to confuse the two, but earlier references to scoring a critical hit seperate it from automatic hits, and they are clearly seperate (though related) ideas, and thus modifying one does not modify the other without stating otherwise.

We've already proven there are situations where Holy Ardor does not guarantee a hit -because of the rules- so do not even -try- to insinuate Holy Ardor is not subject to the rules.

The "targeting invisible person in wrong square" proof again? When you roll a natural 20 and get an automatic hit, the automatic miss from choosing the wrong square trumps the automatic hit from the natural 20. So the fact that in THAT instance you fail to score a critical hit because you AUTOMATICALLY missed is far different than claiming you fail to score a critical hit (when the power says you score a critical hit) because you miss normally. A normal miss is different than an automatic miss.

And 'Precision is not a rule because I say it is not a rule' is a dishonest argument. Prove it is not a rule, because otherwise, it is irrational to believe otherwise.

See above for why it isn't a rule. It doesn't actually say anything that isn't contained in earlier stated rules. Namely the stuff stated at the beginning of the book that "simple rules, many exceptions" and "specific beats general". Generally, you can only score a crit on a natural 20. There are specific ways to do this other ways. You do not need a rule to point this out. You also only score an automatic hit on a natural 20. You do not need a rule to point out that something has to specifically alter it in order to change that. Precision points out that the stuff that alters crits, doesn't alter autohits. No new information is given by the rule, it merely restates the core mechanics as a reminder/clarification instead of cross referencing the exception rules.

A dishonest argument is to take this reminder and twist it to suit the purposes of ones argument, such as reading the power as saying 'you must hit in order to crit'. The general case for scoring a crit requires that your attack roll be high enough to hit. However, Holy Ardor is not a general case for scoring a critical hit. It does not allow the possibility of a critical hit, like (nearly) every other critical modifying effect, but instead states that if conditions are met, a critical hit is scored. It is possible that the hit/miss resolution and rules on critical hits, etc ... require that you hit before it checks if you've scored a critical hit ... but Precision has nothing to do with it. All Precision says is that Automatic Hit is only on a 20.

 

[WalterKovacs]

That's pretty clear, and that language doesn't exist before then. Without it, 'crit on 19-20' would overide -both- Critical Hit and Automatic Hit.

The first example of Automatic Hit and Critical Hit (under the Hit rules) are as seperate rules. While both tied to Natural 20's, the rules that precede Precision already make the decision.

IF it is necessary to have a rule explicitly stating that modifying a crit range also modifies the auto hit range ... where is the rule that says "score a critical hit" doesn't mean "hit and score a critical hit". If you do, ultimately, score a critical hit, you have also hit. [Since you need to hit in order to score a critical hit, you can't score a critical hit without also hitting].

If the argument is that Precision is necessary, otherwise you WOULD auto hit with a 19 that would otherwise miss when attacking with a jagged weapon ... then how is it that "scoring a critical hit", not potentially, but actually, needs to include a line about also hitting to work?

Precision doesn't say "you still need to hit in order to score a critical hit". The normal rules for critical hits say that already. Most powers that modify critical hits only modify the general case slightly, giving other "potential crit" numbers. Holy Ardor is different. It doesn't provide other potential chances for scoring a critical hits, but a secondary path to reach it. It doesn't require breaking a ton of rules ... it merely creates a "If X and Y go to Z" shortcut within the hit/miss timing breakdown. If you meet these conditions, go directly to scoring a critical hit, skipping over the stuff in between.

 

[CovertOps]

@Artoomis: I have never disagreed that you can use Holy Ardor to grant you a critical hit. My objection is two-fold.

1. If indeed Holy Ardor grants a hit then this is the first exception rule EVER that overrides a general rule by indirection --- meaning that you have to reference the attack results rules in order to prove that crit = hit. This breaks the nature of specific vs. general override rules. Also note that you have to reference the very rule you are overriding (attack results) which is unbelieveable. To say that the attack results rules prove that you hit without ever following their instructions is silly.

2. The order of attack resolution (as outlined on p269) prevents you from invoking Holy Ardor until you already have a hit and are applying damage. This is no different from feats such as Weapon Focus which require you to apply damage in order to use them.

The critical hit rules appear on p278 and override the damage rules. The blurb on p276 only says you might score a critical and then refers you to p278 where the actual list of requirements for a critical are listed as well as the detailed instructions on what happens when you get one. I don't know what to say if you somehow think that the rules text on requirements and benefits are not what embodies a "definition".

 

[Artoomis]

@Artoomis: I have never disagreed that you can use Holy Ardor to grant you a critical hit. My objection is two-fold.

1. If indeed Holy Ardor grants a hit then this is the first exception rule EVER that overrides a general rule by indirection --- meaning that you have to reference the attack results rules in order to prove that crit = hit. This breaks the nature of specific vs. general override rules. Also note that you have to reference the very rule you are overriding (attack results) which is unbelieveable. To say that the attack results rules prove that you hit without ever following their instructions is silly.

The simple fact is that in addition to the attack results proof, the term itself is Critical Hit, as in a special types of Hit. It's obvious on its face that a Critical Hit is a type of Hit. Arguing over the term "definition" is really a waste of our time, especially as Holy ardor is not overruling all the attack results rule - only the method by which you get a critical hit. A critical hit is still one of the two possible attack results - Hit or Miss, and only possible under "Hit."

2. The order of attack resolution (as outlined on p269) prevents you from invoking Holy Ardor until you already have a hit and are applying damage. This is no different from feats such as Weapon Focus which require you to apply damage in order to use them.

Incorrect. You are preventing from applying Critical Hit until the same point at which you would invoke Automatic Hit. The Automatic Hit rules provide the first exception where you roll to hit bit don't roll damage until after you check something OTHER than beating the defense score. Holy Ardor provides the second. In essence, Holy Ardor creates a new special circumstance much like an Automatic Hit where something special with the dice (doubles, for Holy Ardor) creates a special attack result (Critical Hit) that overrides the normal result. Since the attack result is a critical hit, you apply damage per the attack result rules, as Holy Ardor does not provide any exception to applying damage from a critical hit, only an exception for how you get to score a critical hit.

The critical hit rules appear on p278 and override the damage rules. The blurb on p276 only says you might score a critical and then refers you to p278 where the actual list of requirements for a critical are listed as well as the detailed instructions on what happens when you get one. I don't know what to say if you somehow think that the rules text on requirements and benefits are not what embodies a "definition".

What's important is that there is no way to actually score a critical hit and then still miss. That's a logical impossibility.

 

[keterys]

What's a logical implausibility is building an argument around the lack of the word can in one place when it's proven that it's missing in two places erroneously.

Here's the trick: Run it however you want in your home games. Personally, I'd suggest that unless there's a balance consideration, allow it to hit and crit.

WotC has already said they'll try and get it FAQed. That's a good thing. Move on with life.

 

[Dan'L]

The simple fact is that in addition to the attack results proof, the term itself is Critical Hit, as in a special types of Hit.

Actually, the term is "Critical Hit," and much the same way that a titmouse isn't actually a mouse, a critical hit isn't actually a hit. Is it unfortunate that they chose this term instead of simply "critical" or "crit" or even "critical damage?" Yes, it is, because it confuses the issue of applying the mechanic.

A critical hit is a conditional effect that is applied to a hit; this is why it appears indented under "hit" on p. 276, and not under "miss" -- because it is only applied when you achieve a hit, not on a miss. And while the wording on p. 276 might be murky enough to argue that it isn't a conditional effect, but rather a full on hit, we have the expanded rules clarifications and definitions for a "critical hit" on p. 278. These detail that a "critical hit" isn't something which can ignore normal hit rules simply by being a "critical hit" (Precision) and it isn't a guarantee of actually applying damage (Maximum Damage).

And also consider, relative to the application of Precision, one and only one of these statements must be true:

(1) "The Holy Ardor feature allows you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20"

(2) "The Holy Ardor feature does not allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20"

With (1) you apply Precision, with (2) it's moot because you couldn't have rolled the dice and gotten a critical hit without rolling a 20.

(And arguing that two 3's aren't "numbers" but uniquely "doubles," that they cannot satisfy both conditions simultaneously, is the semantic equivalent of ostriching -- i.e. sticking your head in a hole in the ground & pretending that no one can see you because you can't see them.)

-Dan'L