Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Obryn]

Normally an Avenger crits on 19/400 results.
With the crit-on-a-2 interpretation, he crits on 37/400 results.

Normally, if an Avenger hits on an 11, he hits on 300/400 attack rolls.
With the crit-on-a-2 interpretation, he hits on 309/400 attack rolls.

Calculate expected damage as: (crit damage * chance to crit) + (regular damage * chance to hit-not-crit).

The increase in damage is small.

Cheers, -- N

Awesome This is exactly what I needed to know. In this case, whether the rules agree with me or not, I'll rule it more favorably towards the player. When the math is laid out, it seems like a much weaker power than I expected, either way. And since he's already critting on a 19 (jagged weapon), the difference is likely even smaller, since now only 2-18's are additional crits. He'll still be critting a lot, mind you, but he's an Avenger and I'm frankly expecting that.

-O

 

[keterys]

Basically I think RAW says it doesn't work, but I recommend letting it work. The player expects it to work that way and it's no big deal.

 

[CovertOps]

Yeah...forgot to add that both sides seemed to agree that they INTENDED for double 2's to hit and crit. The debate was about RAW.

 

[N8Ball]

Did anyone realize that this thread was *the* most debated rules thread in the last year? (almost twice as many as the next and near the top for all time)

And it took place in the span of only 3 weeks? ....600+ posts.... Impressive.

Of course, I only visit the rules section so there may me some equally impressive threads elsewhere, but still....

 

[keterys]

Normally an Avenger crits on 19/400 results.
With the crit-on-a-2 interpretation, he crits on 37/400 results.

Normally, if an Avenger hits on an 11, he hits on 300/400 attack rolls.
With the crit-on-a-2 interpretation, he hits on 309/400 attack rolls.

Calculate expected damage as: (crit damage * chance to crit) + (regular damage * chance to hit-not-crit).

The increase in damage is small.

I didn't notice this the first time, but there's an error in your calculation. You have the Avenger normally only critting on 19/400 results, which is actually _lower_ than 5% which is the crit chance for a normal person. An avenger's crit chance is actually 9.75% (5% chance per d20 rolled, two rolled, 5% chance they're both 20s) which would be 39 or 400. I don't know how far off the other results are, just figured I'd mention.

 

[Nifft]

I didn't notice this the first time, but there's an error in your calculation. You have the Avenger normally only critting on 19/400 results, which is actually _lower_ than 5% which is the crit chance for a normal person. An avenger's crit chance is actually 9.75% (5% chance per d20 rolled, two rolled, 5% chance they're both 20s) which would be 39 or 400. I don't know how far off the other results are, just figured I'd mention.

You're absolutely right. It's 39/400, not 19/400. Thank you.
Correct numbers:

39/400 (9.75% chance) -> crit on 20 (normal Avenger)
58/400 (14.25% chance) -> crit on doubles or 20

Sorry about that, -- N

 

[Flipguarder]

Yeah...forgot to add that both sides seemed to agree that they INTENDED for double 2's to hit and crit. The debate was about RAW.

I don't want to get into a thing about it, and don't really want to explain WHY I feel this way, but I don't believe they intended for double 2's to hit and crit unless they hit the targets defense.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't want to get into a thing about it, and don't really want to explain WHY I feel this way, but I don't believe they intended for double 2's to hit and crit unless they hit the targets defense.

I can't see RAI that way.

RAW appears to be crit on hit.
RAI appears to be crit on 2s.

9 normal hits turned into crits out of every 400 encounters, not too impressive. It'll almost never show up in a game (once every 44 encounters or once every 4 levels).

9 extra crits and 9 normal hits turned into crits out of every 400 encounters, almost makes it worth it (once every 22 encounters or once every 2 levels).

 

[N8Ball]

I can't see RAI that way.
9 normal hits turned into crits out of every 400 encounters, not too impressive. It'll almost never show up in a game (once every 44 encounters or once every 4 levels).

9 extra crits and 9 normal hits turned into crits out of every 400 encounters, almost makes it worth it (once every 22 encounters or once every 2 levels).

I agree with you, but once every 2 levels would still be pretty worthless.

However the 400 number is the number of attack rolls, not encounters, so the frequency also depends on the number of attack rolls per encounter.
Almost all of the fights I've had till now (lvl 11) are over in way less than 10 rounds, but if we assume that (also for ease of calculation)...

...that makes the ability relevant about twice per level (9 times in 40 encounters) if you read it restrictively,

...or about every other encounter (18 times in 40 encounters) if you read it more permissively.

Of course if your fights are quicker, you'll see it a lot less often.
Still, the point remains that it's not that strong by itself and it's advantage is only diminished by other crit-expanding items and abilities.

 

[KarinsDad]

However the 400 number is the number of attack rolls, not encounters, so the frequency also depends on the number of attack rolls per encounter.
Almost all of the fights I've had till now (lvl 11) are over in way less than 10 rounds, but if we assume that (also for ease of calculation)...

...that makes the ability relevant about twice per level (9 times in 40 encounters) if you read it restrictively,

...or about every other encounter (18 times in 40 encounters) if you read it more permissively.

Yeah, I screwed that calculation up.

For an Avenger, they might average using that encounter power 3 times per encounter (not every attack like in your calculations).

So, it would be one in 15 encounters and one in 7 encounters respectively, or twice per 3 levels and 4 times per 3 levels.