Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Marshall]

I think Nifft has it right. The other reading makes the "Two 1's" line superfluous.

 

[pascalnz]

gah I just missed out on pointing out the whole missing on two ones is superflous thing.

to be completely straight it says you score a crit unless it's a double one. which is completely uneeded because you auto miss on ones anyway.

Unless!! this ability negates the normal rules for auto hits/misses and crits.


so if you read it so that it isn't a pointless phrase you crit[not just hit] on any double roll unless it's a double one.

another odd corner case this creates. if you would miss the target on a twenty but you roll a double twenty with this ability, you crit the target.

and, as the math shows it's really just kind of nice and nowhere near broken for it to work this way. it ups your accuracy a tiny amount and your chance to crit at most 5%. most of the time around 2.5.

also .. it's fun

 

[Mirtek]

I think Nifft has it right. The other reading makes the "Two 1's" line superfluous.

No, it's still important if you're buffed so high for a nova turn that you could actually hit on a 1.


I also don't think the difference between "you can score" and "you score" matters at all, since looking at how movement granting powers are also worded in both variants with PHB2 stating that it's always a "you can move" even if the power is written with "you move" it just seems that the designers of 4e did not care at all about the difference between writing "you do" and "you can"

 

[pascalnz]

you can never be buffed so high you hit on a one.

rolling a one is an auto miss, just like a twenty is an auto hit.

it's in the same rules section.

 

[Flipguarder]

At the very least, I think it is currently up to interpretation and therefore, not worth much attention in an argument.

 

[DracoSuave]

Let me highlight the bit you've somehow missed:

-- N

Here's the WHOLE rule again. With the parts -you- missed highlighted. Read it. Then read it again. It applies to this -very- situation. The feature says you score a critical hit, great. Then that means that Precision then kicks in. You've got general, now let's get specific.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

Precision is a rule designed to interract with features and powers that allow you to roll a critical hit with other than 20. Yes?

This feature allows you to roll a critical hit with other than 20. Yes? Does it say, explicitly, that Precision does not apply? Does it say, explicitly, or even implicitly, that you automaticly hit as well as score a crit? No? Does the ability say 'You automatically hit?' No?

Precision applies to this feature.

Simple as that. If it didn't, then it wouldn't apply to any other crit-altering mechanic either. And that means the Precision rule does nothing.

Seriously. The rule is -right there-. It is -unambiguous.- The rule applies -directly- to the situation.

According to the rule specificly regarding altered critical hit possibilities, only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

Please explain where the feature suggests otherwise. Scoring a critical hit is already covered by Precision, -explicitly-. Show me where the words 'automatic hit' come into play here, other than it only happening with 20s.

 

[Turtlejay]

I think I am with Nifft on this one. The wording of the PP ability is more specific than the rule about criticals. Specific trumps general. The quoted wording of the ability has no mights or cans or maybes, it just says "you score a critical hit". Also, the point about rolling two ones is a good one. With Dracosuave's interpretation you wouldn't need that little bit.

Jay

 

[DracoSuave]

Actually the two 1's line is indicating explicitly that the text is not an exception to the 1s automaticly miss rule. It has nothing to do with Precision, as Precision has nothing to do with natural 1s.

The wording of the PP ability is more specific than the rule about criticals. Specific trumps general.

The PP is an ability that says you score a critical in a situation other than rolling natural 20. Precision is a rule that tells you how to adjudicate such abilities. The PP does not have a specific exception written out. The General => Specific order goes like this:

General: You score critical hits on natural 20s, and they are automatic hits.
Tier 1 Specific: You score critical hits when both dice come up the same number.
Tier 2 Specific: Scoring a critical does not automaticly hit unless the number is a natural 20.

See how that works? The paragon path is an exception to the natural 20 rule about rolling the critical, but as an ability 'that allows you to score a critical on numbers other than 20', Precision then is a specific rule that trumps the feature.

Had the feature included text saying that it -did- autohit, then it'd go ahead and trump the Precision rule. Without it, the Precision rule has -no reason- not to apply.

 

[Bryan Reese]

Okay, let's say you need to roll an 11 or better to hit.

Without this, the Avenger has a 39/400 chance of rolling a critical, and a 261/400 chance of rolling a hit.

With the ability to crit (or even auto hit) with this, this changes the math (GAH)

Dear gawd.

Seriously.

I just woke up.

Look, it gives Avengers who have a retarded amount of accuracy as it is even more accuracy and makes their critical hit ability as good as the daggermaster's.

Except, of course, the daggermaster misses if he can't hit with his crit. (This isn't really a good argument tho, as if you can't roll 18 naturally and hit something your DM is a dick or you got debuffed to hell. Or you need to run away. RUN AWAY DAGGERMASTER RUN THIS IS NOT YOUR FIGHT OH NOES THE PALADIN GOT EATED BY VECNA NOOOOOOooooOOOooo!)

But seriously. The Avenger doesn't need more autohit. I dunno if it's broken, but damn if it isn't completely off the hook.

But regardless, if you give this the autohit ability, you're staring down a daggermaster with an execution axe. Those crits ain't with a 1d4 weapon. High Crit comes into play here. Massive damage.

It won't be pretty.

Actually, this is not Daggermaster territory. A Daggermaster scores a crit 15% of the time, rather than your standard 5%, giving it a 10% increase.

This, if you allow a roll of 2 2 to be a crit, scores a crit 18/400 of the time. That is an increase of 4.5%, not even half of a Daggermaster's increase. And really, the discussion is only about the difference between critting on a miss or not. Assuming you need an 11 to hit, that means the looser viewpoint gets the numbers 2-10 extra, or an extra 8 in 400. That is a 2% increase vs. the Daggermasters 10% increase.

The reality is the wording can be interpreted either way, and the difference is about 2% one way or another. For a mere 2%, my feeling is let the players have fun with it. It is one of the few Avenger PPs worth using.

 

[BobTheNob]

Another idea might be to houserule it

"If you hit your oath of enmity and the hit is not a critical, roll another dice. If the result is a natural 20, upgrade the hit to a critical hit"

That way the crit rate it provides is consistent : 5% as opposed to 2.25% at 11+, scaling down with difficulty and up with ease.

It provides a critical hit chance that does not scale up due to the avengers double roll (remember, every time you reduce the crit target by 1, for an avenger the crit chance increase by just shy of 10%)

It doesnt increase avenger accuracy.