Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Eldorian]

How can that be? Precision was put out MORE THAN A YEAR before Holy Ardor. At best, precision mentions that there may be some exceptions to the normal critical hit criteria but doesn't refer to any of them specifically and it certainly didn't refer to any that didn't exist yet.

If anything, Holy Ardor refers to precision because it talks about critical hits and therefore modifies at least some of the rules therein, and we already agree on that because we know it modifies at least SOME of the critical hit criteria, we're just arguing about how much was modified.

Anyway, it offered no new restrictions or guidance on crits. The second part in parentheses simply reminded us of another rule, "Automatic Hit" that is not in the crit section, but in "Attack Results" on 276 (call that rule C in relation to my formula above).

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).


Holy Ardor is a paragon path feature that allows you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers (pairs) other than a 20. It does not refer by name, it refers by category. Features that allow crits.

It's not about which one applies least often. It's not about which one came out most recently. It's about which one, in its language, refers to the other.

For example, the feat Spear Push (PHB) refers to charge attacks made by the paragon path Warforged Juggernaut. Despite the fact that spear push came out first, a year before the other, it refers to the paragon path feature that lets you push people when you hit with a charge attack.

 

[CableRouter]

The thing with this is I am interested in rolling up an avenger, but looking at all of the boards on how to compose an avenger, NONE of them recommend this PP for this reason. They all to cheeseball things like multiclass cleric/radiant servent, multiclass warlock/Student of Caiphon, multiclass rogue/daggermaster.

Bah, make your own cheese!

Avenger/Pit Fighter/Eternal Defender
At Level 24 your melee reach increases to 2 with a Large Fullblade, for extra fun, make it Vorpal and combine with Gauntlets of Destruction and a War Ring. 2d6 Brutal 1 per W, if you roll a 6, keep it and roll another d6!

End game at-wills are 4d6 + 31 damage. With Heavy Blade Mastery crits due to Oath of Emnity are plentiful for 55 +8d6 (2d6 War Ring, 6d6 High Crit) + 6d12 damage (Vorpal). Those extra dice are affected by the gauntlet and vorpal properties, average of 155 damage for critical hit with 2[W] at-will.

 

[Mahali]

A Daggermaster scores a crit 15% of the time, rather than your standard 5%, giving it a 10% increase.

300% percent increase. 5% x 300% = 15%

 

[pascalnz]

for more cheese use a vorpal executioners axe, 2d6 brutal 2

 

[ObsidianCrane]

I like this summary:

IF (A and B) then X.
A = rolling a 20.
B = having a attack roll high enough to hit the defense
X = score a critical hit.

Becaue Holy Ardour makes it read:
IF (A and B) then X.
A = rolling a 20 or the same result on both Oath of Enmity dice.
B = having a attack roll high enough to hit the defense
X = score a critical hit.

Nothing in the text of the power says anything about scoring an automatic hit.

Yet people keep trying to say that the power does include text that makes it an automatic hit, despite the clear lack of such text from the power.

 

[N8Ball]

Becaue Holy Ardour makes it read:
IF (A and B) then X.
A = rolling a 20 or the same result on both Oath of Enmity dice.
B = having a attack roll high enough to hit the defense
X = score a critical hit.

No, that's not exactly right. The original equasion is the form of the PHB wording; Holy Ardor has significant differences.

Let's keep A as "roll a 20". You could think of the mastery feats changing this to "roll a 19 or 20".

Holy Ardor reads likes this if you wanted to put it in logical form.

IF (D and not E) then X

D = Roll doubles on Oath of Enminty dice
E = Roll double ones.

This feature creates a new avenue for achieving X. You still have the original way (A and B) to reach X. The old rules are not replaced, you're just going around them.

The counter argument by DS and others is that the requirements A and B (from PHB and the original equasion) are part of X. Hence their oxymoronic interpretation that a critical hit is not necessarily a hit.

Note- "oxymoronic" is not meant to be inflamatory in any way, I'm just pointing out that it is an apparent contradition.

 

[DracoSuave]

No, that's not exactly right. The original equasion is the form of the PHB wording; Holy Ardor has significant differences.

Let's keep A as "roll a 20". You could think of the mastery feats changing this to "roll a 19 or 20".

Holy Ardor reads likes this if you wanted to put it in logical form.

IF (D and not E) then X

D = Roll doubles on Oath of Enminty dice
E = Roll double ones.

And Precision tosses in the extra logical step that makes it D and not E and F. You keep ignoring the fact that Precision exists.

This feature creates a new avenue for achieving X. You still have the original way (A and B) to reach X. The old rules are not replaced, you're just going around them.

You actually have yet to point out -exactly- how this gets around precision. Precision describes Holy Ardor. Holy Ardor is an ability that allows critical hits on other than a 20. Precision CALLS THAT GUY OUT. So how does Holy Ardor dodge it? You keep saying it does. But you do not actually say -how-. And the text you note, is the text that describes the ability as one that Precision affects.

The counter argument by DS and others is that the requirements A and B (from PHB and the original equasion) are part of X. Hence their oxymoronic interpretation that a critical hit is not necessarily a hit.

We know it is not necessarily a hit. It's not oxymoronic, it's hardcoded into the ruleset. This is how the game's been since the beginning. How does Holy Ardor change this?

And -please- do not say 'the word 'can' is absent.' It's already been proven in multiple ways and fashions that the word 'can' is not necessary for rules to work. We -know- this cannot be the case, because the rules -work- without it for -every other ability and case in the game-. Critcal hits ain't special in that regard.

 

[Flipguarder]

Hence their oxymoronic interpretation that a critical hit is not necessarily a hit.

I don't see it as oxymoronic, I see it as what the rule says:

Precision: Some class features and powers allow
you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers
other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

 

[jeffhartsell]

A critical hit <> hit per the precision rules. It is interesting to read the back and forth debate about the Ardent Champion feature allowing you to hit + crit even though you rolled too low to normally hit. All the PP feature allows for is a critical hit, which is not inclusive of a hit.

Use the logic circles from 3rd grade... (critical ((critical hit)) hit). You can have a critical that is not a hit and hit that is not a critical. When they intersect you have a critical hit.

 

[Artoomis]

Here's the rules on a Critical Hit as presented in the Rules Compendium:

Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

Note that Precision is given in the context of of rolling a single number on a attack die, and the whole set of rules is presented somewhat differently here.

The situation here is an entirely new one - rolling the same number on the two attack dice granted by an Avenger's Oath of Enmity.

So, is "If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit...

So, I have a question, and I think it is truly the key question is:

"If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense..." applicable when you are using the result of an attack roll but are instead using matching die rolls on the two attacks rolls granted by the oath of enmity class feature?"

In my opinion, the Holy Ardent PP class feature creates an entirely new situation that is not based upon the results of an attack roll, and therefore is entirely independent of the previously-existing rules on how to determine a Critical Hit.

This is because the previous rules where all in the context of making a single attack roll, or, previous to Holy Ardent, the best result of more than one attack roll if a power gave you more than one attack roll. Holy Ardent presents an entirely new situation that is a new context for Critical Hits - that of matching two d20 die rolls.

I am not entirely sure what was intended, but I think that's the way it is written. Mind you, the line about two 1s is some supporting evidence of intent, but... maybe, maybe not.