Adjudicating Immediate actions

[Ditch]

Wow, this really requires some rules interpretations. In my circle of friends, we all make spellcraft checks (if we have ranks in it) as soon as anyone begins to cast a spell that is within reasonable range and within sight. This has become a common reaction for our spell casters, regardless if we are going to counterspell it or are just curious as to what is about to befall.

If the PC succeeds with the spellcraft check and identifies the spell, how exactly do they know who is being targeted? Obviously if the spell were fireball, anyone in the party would probably benefit from some form of fire protection, but what if it's a single target? I'm guessing that it's reasonable to assume that NPCs will be firing at the closer targets, avoiding those in melee if possible and definately not targetting PC's who have cover. I guess you could encourage your players to "guess" who is being targeted, then let the NPC's spell resolve. However, if they cast aegis in response to a scorching ray, what's to stop the NPC from making a spellcraft check to recognize that his (assuming the PC's guess was correct) target has been warded against fire? Then upon finishing the spell, the NPC would direct it to an uprotected target? Very interesting delima. Everything needs some weakness. Maybe this is what keeps the immediate effects from being overpowered.

 

[3d6]

We've been letting people use specified energy adaption (a psionic power that provides energy resistance as an immediate action) pretty late in the process. In your example, our game would let the player manifest that power after the 14 fire damage is announced. I don't think there is a right answer in the rules. Whatever seems appropriate to you and your group is the best answer.

 

[KarinsDad]

However, if they cast aegis in response to a scorching ray, what's to stop the NPC from making a spellcraft check to recognize that his (assuming the PC's guess was correct) target has been warded against fire? Then upon finishing the spell, the NPC would direct it to an uprotected target? Very interesting delima. Everything needs some weakness. Maybe this is what keeps the immediate effects from being overpowered.

The DM can stop this.

You start casting Scorching Ray, you have declared everything about it. Your target uses his Ready action to Dimension Door away. Tough luck. The spell is wasted.

I would not allow a spell caster to change targets in response to that, just like I would not allow him to do it for an immediate action. I also would not allow an Archer to change targets if this happened to him either. The first arrow misses the target since the target Dimension Doored away. His second arrow, he can fire at anyone he chooses.

If your opponent was suddenly protected via an Energy Aegis spell, you could still get a Spellcraft roll to figure that out. But, you would not be able to change your casting a Scorching Ray action, at least in my game.

I do not believe that characters should be able to instantly react to every unexpected situation in the game. JMO.


On the other hand, you start casting Summon Monster III and on his turn, your opponent Dimension Doors away, then you can still place that monster anywhere in range that you want.

 

[Question]

Why allow a spellcraft roll?

This is what the PCs are seeing :

1. Hobgoblin sorcerer casting some spell with fire coming out and streaking towards the fighter.

2.At this point the wizard, seeing the obvious fire thingy, casts energy aegis(fire) on the fighter.

3.Fire damage prevented.

The whole spellcraft thing to notice that a wizard is moving hands around and flames are appearing out of thin air is....DRUM ROLL....a fire spell in order to cast energy aegis(fire) sounds ridiculous.

 

[KarinsDad]

Why allow a spellcraft roll?

This is what the PCs are seeing :

1. Hobgoblin sorcerer casting some spell with fire coming out and streaking towards the fighter.

2.At this point the wizard, seeing the obvious fire thingy, casts energy aegis(fire) on the fighter.

3.Fire damage prevented.

The whole spellcraft thing to notice that a wizard is moving hands around and flames are appearing out of thin air is....DRUM ROLL....a fire spell in order to cast energy aegis(fire) sounds ridiculous.

Because of the rules. Scorching Ray is an instantaneous spell. There is no time for #2 because #1 has already happened. There is only time for #2 if the Wizard casts the immediate spell before #1 completes (i.e. before the spell is cast). Typically, that requires either a Spellcraft roll to know to do this, or an extremely good guess on the part of the Wizard.

The instant the flames appear out of thin air is also the exact same instant that the flames hit the target. There is no time between the two.

 

[irdeggman]

Also because it is following the same format as for counterspelling.

Counterspelling requires a readied action (which essentially functions as an immediate action - except for not using up the swift action slot - but the mechanic is pretty much identical).

The Spellcraft check made as part of the counterspell is a "reflexive" check that takes no time but is required in order to successfully counterspell.

From the SRD on counterspelling:

Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work.

 

[Nail]

A spellcraft check is reasonable.....but it's not required. If the PC just wants to guess what kind of damage his pal will be hit with, that's his problem.

The real problem here, as i see it, is that the DM probably announces all of the relevant material right away, just as MarkB stated at the beginning:

DM: "The hobgoblin Sorcerer raises his hand and spellcasts, unleashing a ray of scorching fire that sears into <fightername>'s flesh. Take 14 fire damage."

Given that Real Life statement(tm), the player would have to be an idiot to say:

"I cast Energy Aegis(acid) on my friend Fightername!

Either that, or really cruel.....

 

[Nail]

.....so.....

Does the DM need to pause and ask "Any immediate Actions?" before he says what kind of energy damage occurs?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Along this line it has already caused a number of discussions amongst my home group:

1) Can you cast an immediate action AFTER you find out someone is dead due to too much damage? Is there time between receiving the damage and dying? If not, do you have to do it before the attack roll or can you at least wait until AFTER you know the person is hit and what they are hit with?

2) There are quite a few immediate action spells that say "this must be done before the attack roll is made". Is this the general rule and it just isn't mentioned in all immediate spells or are those exceptions for those spells?

These questions make a fairly big difference on the power level of a couple of spells.

 

[Nail]

I'm sure they would; what spells, in particular?