Adjudication for Dwarf Tossing

[Primitive Screwhead]

I think I will continue to dissent
My reasoning is that the table 42 is something that you don't use a power with and that tossing a dwarf at someone should generally be less lethal than swinging a sword. Use of the improvised weapons keeps the damage small, but allows ranged power uses.
I also figure that the mass of the dwarf spreads the blow out, softening the damage.

But, I can agree to leave the damage question alone..

As to the other questions, IMHO:

- Damage and distance should scale with the size of the object thrown
- No penalty for tossing someone one size smaller than you. 4 point penalty to the athletics check for each size larger than that. 4 point bonus to the check for each size smaller than that.
- The 'heft' DC takes into account the level.. it you can lift it, you can toss it.

- If deceased I would allow the 'grab' as part of a move action, similar to picking up a weapon
- if willing, I would allow the throwee to spend a move action to become 'grabbed', thereby allowing the partner to 'heft' and 'toss' all in one round.

{definately going to have to write this all out after more people chime in }

 

[Amaroq]

The dwarf's racial power is for Push, Pull, or Slide. I suppose there is some grey area in there to work with, leaving it up to the DM.

Right, but the only RAW power a Grab grants is the ability to Pull the target as a Move action.

Surely "Throw" ought to count as "Slide", especially if we're talking about an unwilling target.

To your other questions, I'd say:

- Damage applies to both projectile and target.

- Damage scales based on target size and distance thrown
(also includes any falling damage, e.g., if thrown off 2nd floor balcony)

- For the Athletics check, I'd give you a bonus if you spent a second Move action, after the heft, to get a running start like a discus thrower or telephone-pole tosser. That would follow the existing Grab/Pull rules.

- For the Athletics check, I'd set a static DC by weight including gear. It should be nigh-impossible to throw a Dragon, it should be trivially easy to throw a Rat.

- For the Athletics check, you might allow a penalty-by-level for a resisting target, possibly L/6 or L/10. That penalty goes away if the projectile is unconscious, deceased, or helpless.

 

[Rachel]

Surely "Throw" ought to count as "Slide", especially if we're talking about an unwilling target.

Or a "Push".

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

- For the Athletics check, I'd set a static DC by weight including gear. It should be nigh-impossible to throw a Dragon, it should be trivially easy to throw a Rat.

While I agree with this, one of the issues is setting 'weight' at something that can be calculated readily or on the fly. One option to do this is an encumbrance system that I use that converts everything into 'stone weight' {approx 14 pounds per 1 'stone'}
Just using straight stone weight this could put your 140 pound weakling wizard at a DC of 14 while a Half-Ogre in full plate would be around a DC of 36.

... but unless you adapt a similar HR it would be challenging to figure out the DC of a given character. I prefer to round the numbers off for ease of play even tho its less of a simulation at that point.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I like the idea of using the Stone Weight to determine the DC for the throw penalty. I do not want to use a -1 per stone penalty though. A puppy weighs less then a throwing hammer, and the range on a throwing hammer is not bad at all.

I can concede the point that using the damage entries on DMG page 42 does end up making this more effective then using a sword to stab the target. Conversely, the series of actions is absolutely more difficult to pull off, and a single d4 of damage is too low.

Scaling damage with the throw does seem like a good idea. I think I could be tempted to go with 1d8+str+1 per possible square traveled. If I could toss that dwarf 3 squares but the target I am aiming for is only 2 squares away, I am inclined to think I am still imparting the full force possible on the dwarf.

I do not agree with the penalty per level on the athletics check though. I think the targets level is taken into account with the Reflex and Fort Defences. Besides, distance traveled should be a function of weight unless you want to apply the level benefits to its corpse. The corpse of a dead level 12 Dwarven fighter should not have a statistically significant difference in how far you can throw it compared to the corpse of a Level 1 Dwarven Fighter.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Dan'L]

Well, if you're not assuming a willing target, then what you've really got is a slightly re-flavored Bull Rush. You can house rule all you want, but IMO having to do weight calculations, etc. really breaks the spirit and flow of 4e.

-Dan'L

 

[Squire James]

An unwilling dwarf is tough to toss! The effect is very similar to a Bull Rush, and should perhaps be treated as such (including dwarf resistance to falling prone and being pushed). It's probably futile unless the thrower is Huge or much higher level than the dwarf. Trying such a tactic on a smaller creature that isn't a dwarf is a different story.

As for falling on someone, I stick to something pretty simple. Roll a basic attack. The attacker takes falling damage (perhaps reduced by Acrobatics) and falls prone (unless some magic item or ability prevents this) on a hit or miss. On a hit, the defender takes 1W plus falling damage (assuming the attacker is also trying to hit with a weapon). The attacker could spend an action to stand up after the attack, so there is still some advantage to be gained from the gamble.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Well, if you're not assuming a willing target, then what you've really got is a slightly re-flavored Bull Rush. You can house rule all you want, but IMO having to do weight calculations, etc. really breaks the spirit and flow of 4e.

-Dan'L

Bullrush will only move a target 1 square, and it assumes that the target manages to stay upright. It also takes a standard action. Assuming the situation this thread addresses does come into play, I would not manually determine the weight of every target. I am thinking more along the lines of assigning a reasonable static modifier per size category, and then a potential additional modifier if the target is unusually heavily encumbered.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Artoomis]

Bad Idea

This si a bad idea. Sure, it sounds cool at first, but what happens when the bad guys start tossing the party around? I suspect there would be complaints a-plenty.

Tossing a medium-sized dwarf is no easier than tossing any other medium creature, so the party would be at great risk if this were allowed.

I, for one, would simply not allow this without some form of a power that specifically allowed this.

If I really wanted to let this work, the character would need to replace a fairly high level daily with one that "tossed" (pushed) the enemy, say , four squares (or so). If set up as a no-damage power, maybe even make it a daily utility power.

 

[GhostToast]

Gnome Tossing

I signed up for this forum specifically because of this thread.
My character in a play-by-post game is a 55 pound gnome with an acrobatics of 10. We were wondering if our half-orc ranger could throw the gnome to an advantageous position where he could use his ranged attacks from a safe vantage point. Or if there may be a situation where we have to get one person across a chasm and there's nowhere to tie rope, etc.

Surely there must be some weight / strength / range table somewhere? This is a willing target I'm talking about. And gnomes are considered "small" creatures, which may change things from the original dwarf topic this thread has. Any ideas?