D&D 5E adjusting 5E zombies to be like walkers?

[Caliban]

Have any crit insta-kill them to represent a head-shot. Grapple+bite (as suggested by Shiroiken) to represent infection.

Give them proficiency (or even expertise) in stealth, and have them make stealth checks when inside buildings, etc. (Because walkers stay very still and don't breathe or make sounds when they don't sense anything nearby - usually when inside a building or somewhere that blocks their line of sight to any humans.)

Give them pack tactics and have both roaming swarms and individual walkers.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What DEFCON1 wrote above is really good. It's easiest to use the wight as written. Remove intelligence. Add the gnoll's Rampage. You're taking away one dangerous ability - intelligence - and adding one dangerous ability - rampage - so you can continue to use the wight's CR and XP values.

From a technical, RAW perspective, removing intelligence has no effect on CR, but adding Rampage does, so you ought to increase the CR appropriately.

From an actual DMing perspective, you might choose to break the RAW on this--but I probably wouldn't, because erring on the side of higher CR just means the players will get more XP for killing it. I've never seen players complain about getting "too much XP", except in the context of wanting a campaign with generally-slower advancement rates and longer time spent at low levels--but that isn't a complain about a specific monster. Therefore, if you did make this swap, I'd raise the CR to comply with DMG guidelines instead of leaving them at CR 3.

YMMV.

 

[Kabouter Games]

From a technical, RAW perspective, removing intelligence has no effect on CR, but adding Rampage does, so you ought to increase the CR appropriately.

Ah, yes. I was projecting again.

Bags of hit points hurling themselves mindlessly at the PCs aren't in the same CR league as intelligent foes who oppose the PCs with cunning and skill. So I think it's wise to adjust CR between intelligent beings and mindless ones. In game terms, I realize that difference is impossible to quantify, so I understand why it's not in RAW. (Altogether too many DMs play intelligent creatures as mindless bags of hit points, but that's a different conversation. )

Cheers,

Bob

www.r-p-davis.com

 

[Fanaelialae]

You could modify Undead Fortitude. For the sake of simplicity I'm setting flat DCs, but you could factor in damage if desired. On a 15+, the zombie remains standing at 1 hp. On a 14-6, the zombie falls as though dead, but will reanimate at the start of its next turn with 1 hp unless someone successfully brain pokes it. On a 5 or less, the zombie falls dead.

Keep in mind, regarding the bite, that disease is almost trivially easy to deal with in 5e, if you have the right character in the party. A paladin can remove one disease per day for every level he has (and becomes immune to disease himself at level 3), and anyone who can cast Lesser Restoration (a 2nd level spell) can also remove disease. Unless the disease progresses very quickly, the PCs can simply wait until they're out of danger and remove it then. On the other hand, if it progresses too quickly it can become a prohibitive resource drain that forces the party to take a long rest after every zombie encounter.

In a previous campaign that I played in, the DM had the surface of the world overrun with people infected by a disease that made them rabid (in the vein of 28 Days Later). While the game took place primarily in the Underdark, we did at one point have to go to the surface to get some wyvern eggs for a wizard. We ran into quite a few of the infected in our travels, and with a good medicine check my character was able to determine which of us was infected and how long the infection would take to incubate (1d4 days). Since we could cast Lesser Restoration, we'd simply wait until the day before the character would become rabid and cure them (because if we cured them right away, they could have simply become reinfected). As such, something that was supposed to be this big, scary thing was reduced to a trivial speed bump for our adventuring party. The infected were scary, but not because they could infect us (it was because they were aggressive as hell and came at us in large numbers). Just something to consider.

 

[Oofta]

You could modify Undead Fortitude. For the sake of simplicity I'm setting flat DCs, but you could factor in damage if desired. On a 15+, the zombie remains standing at 1 hp. On a 14-6, the zombie falls as though dead, but will reanimate at the start of its next turn with 1 hp unless someone successfully brain pokes it. On a 5 or less, the zombie falls dead.

Keep in mind, regarding the bite, that disease is almost trivially easy to deal with in 5e, if you have the right character in the party. A paladin can remove one disease per day for every level he has (and becomes immune to disease himself at level 3), and anyone who can cast Lesser Restoration (a 2nd level spell) can also remove disease. Unless the disease progresses very quickly, the PCs can simply wait until they're out of danger and remove it then. On the other hand, if it progresses too quickly it can become a prohibitive resource drain that forces the party to take a long rest after every zombie encounter.

In a previous campaign that I played in, the DM had the surface of the world overrun with people infected by a disease that made them rabid (in the vein of 28 Days Later). While the game took place primarily in the Underdark, we did at one point have to go to the surface to get some wyvern eggs for a wizard. We ran into quite a few of the infected in our travels, and with a good medicine check my character was able to determine which of us was infected and how long the infection would take to incubate (1d4 days). Since we could cast Lesser Restoration, we'd simply wait until the day before the character would become rabid and cure them (because if we cured them right away, they could have simply become reinfected). As such, something that was supposed to be this big, scary thing was reduced to a trivial speed bump for our adventuring party. The infected were scary, but not because they could infect us (it was because they were aggressive as hell and came at us in large numbers). Just something to consider.

A lot of how dangerous a disease is will depend on how it's implemented. In TWD, you only have a few minutes before it's too late to treat someone. It does take a while for them to actually turn, so I would say 2d6 rounds (maybe fewer) they are knocked unconscious and then 2d6 hours later they crave flesh. That way you have a moment or two to save them. Because it's D&D I'd let any magical healing cure them before they go unconscious but after that it would take something more powerful like remove disease. Hopefully it's not your paladin that just got bit.

As for 28 days later, the infection was almost immediately effective from what I remember.

In any case, it might be fun to have a "we have a round or two to heal" along with "he's down, so now it's not going to be simple to get them back up" routine. Maybe a special ritual that takes 10 minutes to bring someone back from the unconscious but not a zombie yet state?

 

[Hand of Evil]

Swam rules and don't think of the infection as a disease but as a poison and use those rules. Don't tell the players as they like everyone else will treat it like a disease and wonder why it is not being cured.

 

[Lanliss]

A lot of how dangerous a disease is will depend on how it's implemented. In TWD, you only have a few minutes before it's too late to treat someone. It does take a while for them to actually turn, so I would say 2d6 rounds (maybe fewer) they are knocked unconscious and then 2d6 hours later they crave flesh. That way you have a moment or two to save them. Because it's D&D I'd let any magical healing cure them before they go unconscious but after that it would take something more powerful like remove disease. Hopefully it's not your paladin that just got bit.

As for 28 days later, the infection was almost immediately effective from what I remember.

In any case, it might be fun to have a "we have a round or two to heal" along with "he's down, so now it's not going to be simple to get them back up" routine. Maybe a special ritual that takes 10 minutes to bring someone back from the unconscious but not a zombie yet state?

I would lean closer to the fever killing them in Xd6 days, where X is their con modifier. That one guy in the first(Or second?) season that was digging graves hung on for a good number of days. Though I like the round count, only for the disease "Setting". 1d6 rounds before the disease sets sounds good, and could give some time to chop off the limb that was bitten. I would also make it a Curse for D&D purposes, of the variety you need the Remove Curse spell to fix.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Bags of hit points hurling themselves mindlessly at the PCs aren't in the same CR league as intelligent foes who oppose the PCs with cunning and skill. So I think it's wise to adjust CR between intelligent beings and mindless ones. In game terms, I realize that difference is impossible to quantify, so I understand why it's not in RAW. (Altogether too many DMs play intelligent creatures as mindless bags of hit points, but that's a different conversation. )

Good points.

If you don't mind me saying a word about that different conversation:

I agree with you. I also think there's a lot of joy to be found in fighting mindless bags of hit points, sometimes, when the players are in the mood for that sort of thing. The DM just needs to realize that he has the power to create creatures which are mindless bags of hit points, instead of creating them as intelligent and then playing them as mindless. If you WANT a game where dragons are Int 2 flying lizards who mindlessly attack (like sharks in a feeding frenzy), then do so! But don't tell me that dragons are highly intelligent creatures with hundreds of years of experience under their belts, and then also play them like Int 2 flying lizards.

As a DM, I like to run a world where armed conflict with intelligent, organized tool-users (like goblins and hobgoblins and other humans) is dangerous and an emotionally-significant event. That orc chief isn't going to divide his forces so you can defeat them in detail in a bunch of Medium-sized fights against two and three orcs at a time. No, if he's here to wipe out your village, you've got two choices: (1) find a way to decoy/trick/manipulate/maneuver/tempt his forces into dividing themselves into two or three groups (e.g. by releasing all the town's cattle onto the plains so that the orcs are tempted to pursue and steal them rather than letting them get away), or (2) fight two dozen orcs all at once. Or (3) run away.

 

[Kabouter Games]

If you don't mind me saying a word about that different conversation:

Not at all. It seems the original thread went a bit dormant, so maybe the OP won't mind the hijack.

I also think there's a lot of joy to be found in fighting mindless bags of hit points, sometimes, when the players are in the mood for that sort of thing. The DM just needs to realize that he has the power to create creatures which are mindless bags of hit points, instead of creating them as intelligent and then playing them as mindless. If you WANT a game where dragons are Int 2 flying lizards who mindlessly attack (like sharks in a feeding frenzy), then do so! But don't tell me that dragons are highly intelligent creatures with hundreds of years of experience under their belts, and then also play them like Int 2 flying lizards.

THIS. Say it louder for the people at the back!

This is also very much related to my earlier point about CR - an intelligent, cunning creature of a certain CR will be much less of a challenge if they're played as mindless bags of hit points. A bugbear has a significant advantage if it surprises a foe. With Stealth +6, it should be ambushing the PCs, not heedlessly rushing in to melee. If you can do 12 points of damage, with a good chance for 24, with javelins before the enemy gets a chance to respond, you're much more likely to win. If you do it from 3/4 cover, you make it even less likely you'll suffer any casualties, and give yourself the option of running away to harass with more ambushes. Even better, that's what the flavor text says they like to do.

Now, because BadWrongFun is distasteful, I can't say DMs who play bugbears as mindless bags of hit points are failing their obligation. (I save that for my DM's Guild monograph on DMing! ) But they are failing themselves and their players if they maintain bugbears as CR 1. They should be CR 1/2, because then they're just goblins with more hit points and damage potential. They're less of a threat, so they should be less XP to defeat.

As a DM, I like to run a world where armed conflict with intelligent, organized tool-users (like goblins and hobgoblins and other humans) is dangerous and an emotionally-significant event. That orc chief isn't going to divide his forces so you can defeat them in detail in a bunch of Medium-sized fights against two and three orcs at a time. No, if he's here to wipe out your village, you've got two choices: (1) find a way to decoy/trick/manipulate/maneuver/tempt his forces into dividing themselves into two or three groups (e.g. by releasing all the town's cattle onto the plains so that the orcs are tempted to pursue and steal them rather than letting them get away), or (2) fight two dozen orcs all at once. Or (3) run away.

 

[Oofta]

I would lean closer to the fever killing them in Xd6 days, where X is their con modifier. That one guy in the first(Or second?) season that was digging graves hung on for a good number of days. Though I like the round count, only for the disease "Setting". 1d6 rounds before the disease sets sounds good, and could give some time to chop off the limb that was bitten. I would also make it a Curse for D&D purposes, of the variety you need the Remove Curse spell to fix.

I look at TWD zombies being like komodo dragons.

Dragon saliva teems with over 50 strains of bacteria, and within 24 hours, the stricken creature usually dies of blood poisoning.

Which seems to be pretty much in line with the show (I could be forgetting someone), unless of course the bite is immediately fatal. If you're following the mythos of the TV show, people that die from any cause rise from the dead either moments or hours later. The CDC doc said it was between 3 minutes and 8 hours. On the other hand Shane seemed to pop up more quickly than that.

If it's blood poisoning, then it's a question of whether you treat is like a poison or disease since that's what it really is.

Then the question is when does the zombie actually break the skin (or significantly scratch) their target. Not that I'm thinking about adding a zombie apocalypse to my campaign.