Adult: GUCK Development Forum again

Summary of d20 GUCK's purposes

"Welcome to the discussion topic for the editing of the great Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. It is advisable that you read all four existing versions of the guide - the Original Guide, the NUCK d20 conversion, the DbS d20 conversion and the beta Naked Blades conversion before contributing, but a little innocence can?t hurt."

4 points to consider: purpose, focus, humour, size.

Klovar's opinion:

"We decided to do a guide with rules, that do try to be mature without the humor of the old"

A quote from Death by Surfeit:

"if we are attempting to provide a clearer and more mature version of the guide, I feel we should have a clearer and more definitive rules set to run with; even the DbS conversion, which I confess is purposefully soft-focus and light-hearted, covers proceedings with more detail!"

his opinion:

"I think the ambiguity of the present system is a major flaw - the concept is right, but it doesn't cover enough bases, as it were, to be applied properly. D&D is a mechanical and precise rules system, almost a wargame, and I feel that the NUCK d20 should reflect this. People should know what they can and can't do, and how they go about doing things - we cannot rely on the arbitration of GMs."

A very good point from DbS:

"Now, I see a greater potential - rather than exist as awkward siblings, the two could be different spins on the same concept, a 'softcore' and a 'hardcore' guide. The DbS could handle the silly aspect, the spells intended for humour only, the more irreverant rules (eg the dirty etchings generator), and so on. The NUCK would go into more detail, cover bases the DbS wouldn?t, give a system with more possibilities than its sibling. This way, we could hope to satisfy all needs whilst keeping a sense of unity. This also makes our lives a whole lot easier."

IMO, the very goal of d20 GUCK, again a quote from DbS:

"For example, if both guides used the same core mechanic (such as the Sexual Prowess check), the DbS would cover enough of the rules, the generic spells and so on to fuel the rest of the guide. The NUCK adds neat twists like sex tricks, special circumstances and more modifiers, giving the audience the tools for whatever they need. It would add the articles on pregnancy and racial sexualities, making it a more comprehensive resource. Whilst I?d need to edit two guides rather than one, a shared bond makes both tasks more enjoyable and more acheivable - furthermore it allows us to offer people two spins on the concept of the d20 GUCK, allowing them to choose the one they like."

Sorn's opinion:

"I also think that having just one book would be better. Not only because that means half the work for me, but also for simplicity's sake. I already lug around 5 tons of gaming books when I am a player, more if I actually run something. Having to reference 2 different books (and of course having to remember which spell was in which one) will only add to the hassle. Plus, there will be a lot of repetition. A lot of the spells will be applicable to either book (especially when it comes to pregnancy, etc.) so do you really want to force people to get both.

A lot of publishers have optional rules offered in sidebars and the like, so I think we can do the same without anyone complaining. I'll make sure to note optional rules as such when I do the layout."

I could go on forever quoting people from the first page, myself included. The important point to take up here is that we are willing to create the most complete sex source book for 3E D&D. Therefore, the main rule set concentrate on a turn by turn executed sex encounters. There will be quick sex rules (soft-focus) as a sidebar for those not interested in a sex-oriented campaign. Let's not reinvent the wheel here. That being said, we are willing to create the most complete guide there is about 3E sex. If seduction needs to be included, it will. Surely as a side bar since it would be soft-focus oriented IMO. Furthermore, many people do not want to use such rules. That very issue came up often and the consensus was: no love, court, seduction rules. We could make a few suggestion on how the current standard skills could be used for these pusposes. Let's hear some suggestions!

quote from psychosama:
"What's the diffrence between this and the other GUCK thread?"

amswer from VVrayven:
"Well, Psyckosama, in here we discussion the actual writting, editing, and making of the new book. The other thread is mainly for tossing around ideas. Death By Surfeit moved development here a while back because nothing was getting done back over there."

Quote from VVrayven:
"Just to clarify:

We have two sets of rules currently in development. A Soft-Focus and a Hard-Focus. Both rules sets (as I see it) are going to be presented in full. The Soft-Focus rules are to see the quick results of one encounter without much rolling or detail. The Hard-Focus rules are indeed turn based and work in a "combat-style" manner. They work with a 6 second round just like standard d20 and involve a series of skill checks and Fortitude saves for resistance. That's why all the DC's are so high and why a common idiot with a 0 in Prowess can still perform to satisfaction (by taking 20). Hence, over 2 minutes, a one category improvement can be made. (So 6 minutes total for the whole encounter).

All of this information about the rules sets I thought was already assumed. I do not think the way the assigning of feats and tricks, or mini-feats works should change between the soft and hard focus rules. They should be a quick and detail version without needed to have different core stats, IMHO."

Summary on the "accepted rules" coming up!
 
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Good summary, Bastoche.

The focus of this effort is, as stated, Carnal Knowledge. "Carnal" really has nothing to do with flowers and romance. Pardon my abstraction here, but it's about all the variations of "Insert Tab 1 into Slot A" and its aftermath (i.e. orgasms, pregnancies, diseases, etc.) in the context of a fantasy game (hence we have spells, magic items, monsters, etc.).

Again, if people want seduction guidelines, we can put something in. I don't see a problem with that. As it leads up to sex, it can go into the "New Uses for Old Skills" section. Given the placement, this should be short. Two or three sentences with a few suggestions on possible modifiers. Any more would be a waste of time IMO.

Love doesn't follow any rules in real life, so why would it in a game? Hence, this might be an essay topic for the guide, but there won't be any rules for it.
 

I currently gathering the current rules on this thread. It's so large that I'm gonna make a PDF version of it. Should be done today, I hope. No good lokking layout. Just everything hopefully up to date and complete...
 


The main aim of the GUCK is to support an erotic fantasy game style. A game setting where sex encounters comes first and other types of encounters are second.

For all those of you only interested in quick sex rules and pregnancy, there will be the "soft-focus" set of rules especially for that purpose.

I don't wish to sound ignorant but when we get to them, lets try and keep the soft-core rules set from becoming the "redheaded stepchild" of the GUCK. I seriously think just a side bar is too little space. A page or two might cover it better.

The rules GUCK is about is rules for sex encounters as a main feature of a campaign. The so-called "hard-focus" rules. All the prior discussion gravitated around that very purpose keeping in mind that most people will rather be interested in soft-focus.

Noted and understood, but that isn't all it should be.

SinbadBleu, I don't know what the hell you're trying to prove here but please read this whole thread over and you'll understand. There's no point in going through juvenile arguing over seduction and love etc. We're here to give rules suggestion to further improve the GUCK rule set. To further improve this set of rules, it is imperative that everybody understands what we are trying to acheive here and in order to do so, read the thread over. I'll try to gather up the things "done" in a following post.

Okay, I made a recomendation for courtship and love rules now let me impress on my POV. We don't have to recreate the wheel, just give is white walls and a nice set of rims... IE: explain in more detail, give some notes on ways to use it in a campaign, new suduction related uses for old spells abnd skills, and maybe add somemore detail to the rules.

Klovar's opinion:

"We decided to do a guide with rules, that do try to be mature without the humor of the old"

A quote from Death by Surfeit:

"if we are attempting to provide a clearer and more mature version of the guide, I feel we should have a clearer and more definitive rules set to run with; even the DbS conversion, which I confess is purposefully soft-focus and light-hearted, covers proceedings with more detail!"

All I can say is you don't have to do one of the above to get the other. THe GUCK should be funny. That's one of the reasons its so popular, it's a entertaining read. If we make it too dry we'll suck the spirit out of the GUCK. You can be mature but funny, just lower the amount of toilet humor and replace it with lovely concepts that will fit the more serious tome: Dry humor, sarcasm, irony, worldplays, and puns.
 

Psyckosama said:
I don't wish to sound ignorant but when we get to them, lets try and keep the soft-core rules set from becoming the "redheaded stepchild" of the GUCK. I seriously think just a side bar is too little space. A page or two might cover it better.

Side bar is better than a page or two. Side bar IMO will cover a continuous niche between "redheaded stepchild" to hard-ocus rules. We'll see how it goes. Anyway, the point of soft-focus is that it's not the main feature of the GUCK book. The way it will be edited (as a sidebar or a separate chapter) doesn't change anything.

Noted and understood, but that isn't all it should be.

Like I said, I think the goal is to cover everything from no-sex to all-sex. If you will ;)

Okay, I made a recomendation for courtship and love rules now let me impress on my POV. We don't have to recreate the wheel, just give is white walls and a nice set of rims... IE: explain in more detail, give some notes on ways to use it in a campaign, new suduction related uses for old spells abnd skills, and maybe add somemore detail to the rules.

My point is that there should never be as many details on seduction, love, etc, than there already is on carnal encounters.

All I can say is you don't have to do one of the above to get the other. THe GUCK should be funny. That's one of the reasons its so popular, it's a entertaining read. If we make it too dry we'll suck the spirit out of the GUCK. You can be mature but funny, just lower the amount of toilet humor and replace it with lovely concepts that will fit the more serious tome: Dry humor, sarcasm, irony, worldplays, and puns.

I do not agree with this at all, but I think we can easily cover both grounds.
 

I don't wish to sound ignorant but when we get to them, lets try and keep the soft-core rules set from becoming the "redheaded stepchild" of the GUCK. I seriously think just a side bar is too little space. A page or two might cover it better.

The term "sidebar" might be a bit misleading. In the end, it will most likely be more of a text box that fills a whole page or two. In the early version that's on the site, the quick resolution rules take up about half a page. With the current rules, I expect it to be longer than that, plus various additional sidebars and references mixed in with the rest of the guide. I am also planning an appendix, which will contain the tables and rules summaries (like Mongoose Publishing is doing in most, if not all, of their works).

Okay, I made a recomendation for courtship and love rules now let me impress on my POV. We don't have to recreate the wheel, just give is white walls and a nice set of rims... IE: explain in more detail, give some notes on ways to use it in a campaign, new suduction related uses for old spells abnd skills, and maybe add somemore detail to the rules.

That's fine. New Uses for Old Skills/Spells is certainly a part of the guide the way I see it. The majority thereof will definitely be geared towards sex, not seduction and love. But seduction and love will certainly be a part of those sections.

I think the discussion got a little out of hand when it came to seduction and love, but mostly due to a miscommunication regarding the depth of these rules. Suggestions for modifiers and a few paragraphs are certainly within the scope of this book. It came across as if detailed rules akin to the scope of our hard-focus core mechanics were desired.

All I can say is you don't have to do one of the above to get the other. THe GUCK should be funny. That's one of the reasons its so popular, it's a entertaining read. If we make it too dry we'll suck the spirit out of the GUCK. You can be mature but funny, just lower the amount of toilet humor and replace it with lovely concepts that will fit the more serious tome: Dry humor, sarcasm, irony, worldplays, and puns.

Definitely. We will already be labelled as perverts or dweebs who can't get any, so if we take ourselves too serious, this will only get worse. As you said, toilet humor is something we should probably stay away from, but we should keep everything somewhat tongue-in-cheek and light-hearted. I think that's where the spell section and the magic item section will really shine. The core mechanics are a little dry, but that's the nature of mechanics. In a similar vein, the character creation rules or the combat section of the PHB aren't all that entertaining to read either.

Addition after reading Bastoche's latest post:

Maybe we need to clarify on the humor aspect... There's a big difference between entertaining and funny, and downright silly throughout the book. If the whole book is dry and stuffy, nobody will read it. Humor was a huge selling point of the original, so we should preserve at least some of that .
 
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Sorn said:

Definitely. We will already be labelled as perverts or dweebs who can't get any, so if we take ourselves too serious, this will only get worse. As you said, toilet humor is something we should probably stay away from, but we should keep everything somewhat tongue-in-cheek and light-hearted. I think that's where the spell section and the magic item section will really shine. The core mechanics are a little dry, but that's the nature of mechanics. In a similar vein, the character creation rules or the combat section of the PHB aren't all that entertaining to read either.

The fact the flavor text has not yet been touched make it so. I'm sure it will change once the flavor text gets in. As long as the humourous contents is as mature as the rules' mindset, I'm sure it will be more than ok though.

My rules summary is advancing...
 


Wow! I picked the wrong few days to miss.

I can't speak for DbS but it seems that he and I are the only ones whom haven't been around to voice our opinions, though we have been quoted enough (thanks Bastoche :))

My only real concern at this point is that we have slid off topic. This forum was suppose to be the step by step creation of the rules, and now we are getting bogged down in "what should" and "what if". That is what the other forum was suppose to be for. But, since we are here, lets try to answer questions and push through to get back to the original plan. Which by the way was:

1) Kinks, sexual alignment and suchforth – things that would be in the draft above were they complete at the time this was typed up. Any contributions on this topic are very much valued.

2) Spells, spellcasting and spellcasters – these are essentially a direct extension of the core mechanics and need to be arranged before we can get anything else underway.

3) Magic items – directly based on the mechanics listed above, so probably worth doing next. Once these are done, we can claim to have a relatively comprehensive Guide.

4) Descriptions, essays, monsters, rules for prostitution, pregnancy & diseases, and suchforth. With the advent of their finalisation, the Guide will be pretty much complete.

5) Much, much rejoicing.

Now on to specifics:

I think these rules should be entertaining, but not directly funny or silly. Some of us have tried really hard to make these rules flow well, with 3e style and abstract realism (there's a term for you). But I don't think the humor style used in the original guide should be used. The "Funny as Hell" value of a work seems (in my eyes) to belittle the hard work of all those involved. Now, I'm not saying we can't have a "wink wink, nudge nudge", but I do think we need a different tone from the original which was little more than a collection of semi-workable ideas and jokes thrown together (the spells namely being completly reidiculous). GUCK should be useful from a serious stand-point and not just a "joke-game".

All I can say is you don't have to do one of the above to get the other. THe GUCK should be funny. That's one of the reasons its so popular, it's a entertaining read. If we make it too dry we'll suck the spirit out of the GUCK. You can be mature but funny, just lower the amount of toilet humor and replace it with lovely concepts that will fit the more serious tome: Dry humor, sarcasm, irony, worldplays, and puns.

I agree with this in the most part and but feel strongly against "slack stick spells" and puns. But the anti-punnism is more a personal problem than a gripe. ;)

Rules on Seduction:
As one of the lead contributers (i think I've earned that title at least boys): I'll say that I will put ONE page in on rules for this. It will involve NO NEW SKILLS. It will only detail how to use old ones. It will not be absolute and WILL be abstract. If people agree with this, that's great. I hope it settles most of the issue. GUCK should not completly ignore seduction, but these types of things should be role played out with a quick system for those that wish to skip such things.

Rules on Love:
We have one feat (true love) and one side bar (Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder) right now. That's pretty much all there needs to be. Love shouldn't ever be detailed by a mechanic. Even a "love spell" should be somewhat ambigious. Love is one of the most complex emotional and physical patterns in the human psyche. It cannot be modeled or controled. It should be role played and not introduced as a die roll after a sexual encounter or with a seduction roll. (Infatiuation might be covered in seduction, however). Love itself is to wonderful and terrible to cover acurately when we are already trying to keep space down. Expect no system for it (I believe I speak for DbS and the rest of the staff on this one).

Soft vs Hard
I picture soft focus being worked up as an overly long sidebar. I don't think it will be the "stepchild". It will be the section used by people who are not running a sexually intensive game. I picture it being mostly flavor text and a few suggestions about how to integrate other hard focus mechanics in on the fly.

Well actually a more correct topic would be "What Was Banned From the GUCK Forum"

Since you tote it so please list the core persons.....and what they have contributed......beyond the original works.

With all due respect SinbadBleu, please do not sow discontent here. I believe I am one of the core here now and I hope you are not implying that we haven't "contributed" anything new from the old guide. We have worked hard here, and yes, it is a forum project so everyone that posts is involved... But seriously, just because someone reads our work doesn't mean they have really gritted down and put effort into it. We have discussed things in forum and come to consenus through our own way. We say such things because we are the ones putting our hours and time into the rules and mechanics. If you have a problem with the way in which we operate, that's fine, you are free to tell us, it is an open forum. I would ask though that you be polite and at least give us the benefit of a doubt that we have considered your opinions. Nothing has been banned from our forum. We are just trying to keep to a plan. I've disagreed with your "size chart" idea, it doesn't mean it wasn't considered. The same goes for elaborate rules for love and seduction. We do thank you for bringing our attnetion to things though. If you wish to contribute more (you've been silent a time it seems) feel free to post.

Welcome back DbS. <hugs> we missed you. :)

I agree with you on the spells and other issues. Your pregancy system also needs to be discussed but we seem to have gotten side tracked again. I'd like to get back to the good old plug and go, style that we had. We were making such go progress too. ::sigh::

Anyway, since I've set the trend before. Here is the new order of operations as I see it:

1) Confirm the new Core Rules: Make one post (by DbS if possible) of the new core document.

1a) Sub Rules coverage - clothing, circumstance modifiers... etc...

2) More of the following (and ever ongoing until we finish): Feats, Sex Arts and (when we get there) kinks.

3) The Kinks System (DbS, do you still have this one?)

4) Pregnacy (it gets it's own category and precidence now becuase it is so talked about) We need a quick system and an in-depth system and we need consenus.

5) Sexual Alignment (we had something going here, but it got lost in the storm of posts)

6) Spells and Spellcasting variants. This needs a HEAVY rework, but I'm not going to start until 1-5 are DONE, because the spells should mimic the work of the core rules.

7) Prestige Class and additional ideas.

8) Magic Items and such

9) Descriptions, essays, monsters, rules for prostitution, diseases, and suchforth.

10) Our stance and info on NC...

11) Everything else...

We still have a few open issues as well:

A) DSM & Bondage as Profs? (DbS you said you'd get back to me ;))

B) Clothing: special mods like armor add ons or just a big list of specific clothings...

C) How are we handling NC: Feats, no feats... Classes, no classes... Ignore or eassys with discussion...

That's it from your friendly dark vixen. <hugs to all> Let's try and get back on track now with some constructive work.

Edit: Excellent work Bastoche. ::blows a kiss:: Great job. You left out my final Carnal Art (the general one which needs a new name, I DbS had one. ;)) But great job. I don't have the time right now to check it all for correctness, but it looks good. Oh, and there are a few things in there that are still being dicussed and aren't part of the core yet, like Issue A above and how kinks work (though I'm still glad everyone is onboard with my system now. <blush>) Thanks again, Bastoche.
 
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kolvar said:
Just have a few seconds to spare and want to write, that this rather annoys me, that, even with satire mode and everything, people are arguing, what should be in or not.
So far, this is the development thread for the basic rules and we did the whole thing twice upside down (and that is the reason, why we do it a third time).
The suggestion, to do another thread, is ok, but will probably lead to nothing, as far as the past has shown.
My suggestion: collect everything, that does not belong to the topic at hand in a file, put it on the site and when we come to it, we have everything at hand. On a case by case basis, a topic can be discussed immediatly.
(but probalby, this is all meaningless and I am making something out of nothing, because I can barely look through my eyes and have rather annoying cold. In this case, just forget that I posted).

Kolvar

How current is the material on the UCK web page or is that even your web page?
 

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