Adult: GUCK Development Forum again
- Thread starter Death By Surfeit
- Start date
About modern usage of the GUCK:
While the guide does aim toward fantasy setting, a more "natrualized" core rule terminology (one that does not refers to magic) would be nice. Later spells, skills, feats that are fantasy specific can be listed. Also consider the following:
* Repuation & Media plays a much borader role in modern settings, as the Gods might not be present but the gossip columns are (or at least people are)
* When adding interesting substances, some notes regarding real life substances instead of fantasy ones. Same goes for things like counterceptives.
* Toys & Equipments in a modern setting are usually quite different from their fantasy equivelents (no need for spell components - battaries do just fine)
About picking up something in the bar (or any kind of courtship to that matter):
After some discussion with friends, I'm not so sure about Bluff being the right skill. Diploamcy seem to be appropriate one as well, if not even more -- If a character court someone that he or she are attempting to improve the other character reaction toward them.
Consider using Diploamcy with such attitudes as Repulsed (instead of hostile), Unreceptive (unfriendly), Indifferent, Attracted (Friednly), Enamored (helpful), Enthralled (and additonal attidude). Add to this modifiers for mood, gender/race preference, etc. This can be repeated on differenct encounter to simulate the process of courtship. Good rolls can also effect the mental state of the participents (some find the courtship an important element of arousal).
Those attitudes can provide bonuses (or penalites) to other interactions, including sex. Great sex might also move the NPC to a more favorable attitude regarding the character.
In this case, character A first tries to get a better attitude from NPC B by using diplomacy. A bluff might simply represent an attempt of A to convince B ("never on first date!") to go to a more intimate place NOW. A successful bluff might get someone to bed but might cause some unfavorable reactions toward the seducer the next morning. Bluff is usually described as an element of fast-talk -- not every courship is neccessraly a pickup at a bar, and not every successful pickup at a bar mean automatic sex.
BTW, in D20 modern, Star Wars (and who knows maybe in D&D 3.5) perform skills are seperate - Prowerss might simply be written down in those as Perform (Sex)
While the guide does aim toward fantasy setting, a more "natrualized" core rule terminology (one that does not refers to magic) would be nice. Later spells, skills, feats that are fantasy specific can be listed. Also consider the following:
* Repuation & Media plays a much borader role in modern settings, as the Gods might not be present but the gossip columns are (or at least people are)
* When adding interesting substances, some notes regarding real life substances instead of fantasy ones. Same goes for things like counterceptives.
* Toys & Equipments in a modern setting are usually quite different from their fantasy equivelents (no need for spell components - battaries do just fine)
About picking up something in the bar (or any kind of courtship to that matter):
After some discussion with friends, I'm not so sure about Bluff being the right skill. Diploamcy seem to be appropriate one as well, if not even more -- If a character court someone that he or she are attempting to improve the other character reaction toward them.
Consider using Diploamcy with such attitudes as Repulsed (instead of hostile), Unreceptive (unfriendly), Indifferent, Attracted (Friednly), Enamored (helpful), Enthralled (and additonal attidude). Add to this modifiers for mood, gender/race preference, etc. This can be repeated on differenct encounter to simulate the process of courtship. Good rolls can also effect the mental state of the participents (some find the courtship an important element of arousal).
Those attitudes can provide bonuses (or penalites) to other interactions, including sex. Great sex might also move the NPC to a more favorable attitude regarding the character.
In this case, character A first tries to get a better attitude from NPC B by using diplomacy. A bluff might simply represent an attempt of A to convince B ("never on first date!") to go to a more intimate place NOW. A successful bluff might get someone to bed but might cause some unfavorable reactions toward the seducer the next morning. Bluff is usually described as an element of fast-talk -- not every courship is neccessraly a pickup at a bar, and not every successful pickup at a bar mean automatic sex.
BTW, in D20 modern, Star Wars (and who knows maybe in D&D 3.5) perform skills are seperate - Prowerss might simply be written down in those as Perform (Sex)
Asra:
D20 Modern
I see your point. However, the prime audience for this is D&D players (especially since this is what most the developers play). Personally, I don't like sourcebooks where I have to sift through and figure out which parts apply to fantasy and which one apply to other settings. Having batteries intermingle with spell components and fantasy-only PrC's is more of a pain than anything else. But, an appendix with d20Modern specific rules would be a good spot to put them. It would be included, but yet seperate from the main focus.
Bluff/Diplomacy:
Again, you make a lot of sense. The only reason I say Bluff is because that is the official d20 stance on Seduction (and not only sexual... seduction has many flavors). That was determined in Sword & Fist. My take on this is this: you can use Diplomacy to adjust the target's mood towards you, and then you make your Bluff roll. After all, there is something you want (be it sex, companionship, long-term relation, etc), and you portray yourself in a favorable light to get it. I don't think anyone will try to seduce someone by pointing out their flaws. Well, then again, people are strange, and they might, but usually the results are pretty horrendous.
Courtship is a different ballgame from seduction. You are now entering the realm of romance and love, and I don't think we want to put any concrete modifiers on that. It could easily lead to strange situations. Imagine this:
"Ok, your character has been courted by the rather ugly guy for 10 months, and with the +4 for the rose he sent you, the +2 candy bonus, the +6 for buying your parents a new ox-cart, and the +2 for shirt he had enchanted to bear your likeness, you now fall in love with him. It doesn't matter that you think he's weird and more of a stalker than anything else, the rules indicate that you have to love him"
This might be an extreme example, but it could happen. Things like that are better left in the domain of ROLEplaying, not ROLLplaying.
Now for Perform... Not everybody gets Perform as a class skill. OTOMH, in D&D the only class who gets it as a class skill is the Bard, and maybe the Rogue. We want to give everybody equal access to sexual skills. Giving Perform to everybody as a class skill is unbalancing, and none of the other skills really fit. The only ones that would make sense would be Craft or Profession. You are not actually making anything, so Craft is out. And sex doesn't strike me as a profession unless you are a prostitute, plus the Wis modifier seems wrong. As a matter of fact, a lot of people are having sex when common sense (Wisdom) should indicate that they shouldn't. Spycraft has added Sports and Hobby skills to the list, but neither of them really
strikes me as workable for sex either.
Hence, a new skill, that every class gets as an additional class skill is the best way to go.
Btw, since in D&D, you get a new artforms as you increase your ranks in Perform, you can take artforms that would enhance your Sexual Prowess. I can easily see synergy bonuses for Perform (Erotic Dance) or Perform (Dirty Talk).
D20 Modern
I see your point. However, the prime audience for this is D&D players (especially since this is what most the developers play). Personally, I don't like sourcebooks where I have to sift through and figure out which parts apply to fantasy and which one apply to other settings. Having batteries intermingle with spell components and fantasy-only PrC's is more of a pain than anything else. But, an appendix with d20Modern specific rules would be a good spot to put them. It would be included, but yet seperate from the main focus.
Bluff/Diplomacy:
Again, you make a lot of sense. The only reason I say Bluff is because that is the official d20 stance on Seduction (and not only sexual... seduction has many flavors). That was determined in Sword & Fist. My take on this is this: you can use Diplomacy to adjust the target's mood towards you, and then you make your Bluff roll. After all, there is something you want (be it sex, companionship, long-term relation, etc), and you portray yourself in a favorable light to get it. I don't think anyone will try to seduce someone by pointing out their flaws. Well, then again, people are strange, and they might, but usually the results are pretty horrendous.
Courtship is a different ballgame from seduction. You are now entering the realm of romance and love, and I don't think we want to put any concrete modifiers on that. It could easily lead to strange situations. Imagine this:
"Ok, your character has been courted by the rather ugly guy for 10 months, and with the +4 for the rose he sent you, the +2 candy bonus, the +6 for buying your parents a new ox-cart, and the +2 for shirt he had enchanted to bear your likeness, you now fall in love with him. It doesn't matter that you think he's weird and more of a stalker than anything else, the rules indicate that you have to love him"
This might be an extreme example, but it could happen. Things like that are better left in the domain of ROLEplaying, not ROLLplaying.
Now for Perform... Not everybody gets Perform as a class skill. OTOMH, in D&D the only class who gets it as a class skill is the Bard, and maybe the Rogue. We want to give everybody equal access to sexual skills. Giving Perform to everybody as a class skill is unbalancing, and none of the other skills really fit. The only ones that would make sense would be Craft or Profession. You are not actually making anything, so Craft is out. And sex doesn't strike me as a profession unless you are a prostitute, plus the Wis modifier seems wrong. As a matter of fact, a lot of people are having sex when common sense (Wisdom) should indicate that they shouldn't. Spycraft has added Sports and Hobby skills to the list, but neither of them really
strikes me as workable for sex either.
Hence, a new skill, that every class gets as an additional class skill is the best way to go.
Btw, since in D&D, you get a new artforms as you increase your ranks in Perform, you can take artforms that would enhance your Sexual Prowess. I can easily see synergy bonuses for Perform (Erotic Dance) or Perform (Dirty Talk).
An modern+ setting appednix is a good idea, but again, a little more generic terminology at the basic mechanism rules will help.
Bluff=Seduction via Sword & Fist:
A) NOT an OGL source (and only mention there, IIRC, not in any other Bluff reference by WotC I came across) -- Therefore should be adressed (and NOT copied) by the GUCK itself.
B) I think your concept of using the diplomacy is valid. But I still hold by the importance of the general attitude toward the character.
C) The Bluff skill is described as (quoting the D20 SRD) "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as the character wishes, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that the character wants him to believe" -- it seem to indicate that the bluff hold for a very short duration - enough to get some info, distract the target in order to ease a pickpocket attepth, but not for a night getaway.
Aha - the same could say for the entire GUCK
... (and could be handled quite easily -- while NOT starting it again (please), this is not an unsimiliar situation to a certain NC-issues that was rised in this thread.)
Seriously, while GUCK is mainly about the act itself, some rules regarding what bring people to the act are, in my opinion, in place. Also having rules sometimes make certain "delicate" role playing situations more comfortable - roleplaying romance in some situation can make players (and DM) feel awkward, and falling back on rules often makes thing easier to those involved (focus on the rules - ignore the weirdness of the situation).
Bluff=Seduction via Sword & Fist:
A) NOT an OGL source (and only mention there, IIRC, not in any other Bluff reference by WotC I came across) -- Therefore should be adressed (and NOT copied) by the GUCK itself.
B) I think your concept of using the diplomacy is valid. But I still hold by the importance of the general attitude toward the character.
C) The Bluff skill is described as (quoting the D20 SRD) "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as the character wishes, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that the character wants him to believe" -- it seem to indicate that the bluff hold for a very short duration - enough to get some info, distract the target in order to ease a pickpocket attepth, but not for a night getaway.
Sorn said:
Aha - the same could say for the entire GUCK
... (and could be handled quite easily -- while NOT starting it again (please), this is not an unsimiliar situation to a certain NC-issues that was rised in this thread.)Seriously, while GUCK is mainly about the act itself, some rules regarding what bring people to the act are, in my opinion, in place. Also having rules sometimes make certain "delicate" role playing situations more comfortable - roleplaying romance in some situation can make players (and DM) feel awkward, and falling back on rules often makes thing easier to those involved (focus on the rules - ignore the weirdness of the situation).
asra said:
Aha - the same could say for the entire GUCK
I do not agree with this. The GUCK concerns itself (more or less) with manual ability. The skill one has to manoeuver it's body to acheive a certain goal. While seduction and love is much more subtle. I'm in favor of neglecting romance altogheter in the GUCK and leave the matter in the DM's own hands. Some suggestions could be made in appendix (or maybe in the introduction) but I think it's not a good idea to waste time on that matter. It could go on forever.
I do not agree with this either. If you can roleplay hate (toward a villain or from a villain toward a PC character) it should be as easy to play love. If you can't, there's all the ingredients in the core rule: sense motive, bluff and diplomacy (plus any circonstancial bonus from any other source). Just use it proprely. No need to go in details over this.
As for the modern vs starwars vs D&D issue, I only play D&D so I'd prefer the GUCK to be realted to that only...
Gez
First Post
Hello, I'm still here.
I'm not opposed to having a Modern appendix, but that should not be a priority.
I don't think (but I may be wrong) Perform will go the way of d20 Modern or d20 SW. Because of the bard class. So, we can keep the "ranks give proficiencies" approach and stay d20-consistant IMO.
I'll give more opinion and draft on mechanics when I'll have a bit more time, right now I'm rather focused on the critter I'm working on for Sword & Sorcery Studios.
I'm not opposed to having a Modern appendix, but that should not be a priority.
I don't think (but I may be wrong) Perform will go the way of d20 Modern or d20 SW. Because of the bard class. So, we can keep the "ranks give proficiencies" approach and stay d20-consistant IMO.
I'll give more opinion and draft on mechanics when I'll have a bit more time, right now I'm rather focused on the critter I'm working on for Sword & Sorcery Studios.
Death By Surfeit
First Post
Hello everyone,
Regarding your suggestions, Asra, there is indeed potential to convert our mechanical rules into a modern or even futuristic setting, but the GUCK was created with the express intention of catering for sexual matters in a fantasy environment, more specifically that of D&D. Yes, we could easily hop around converting to other contexts, but an awful lot of our content (anything magic-related, the species-specific details, yadda yadda) would be lost.
With regards the recommendation for seduction, courtship and love, the GUCK may address some of the issues: a mechanic dedicated purely to seduction (such as that presented in Ch3 of the DbS conversion) would probably be featured, but open to modifiers as the Gamesmaster sees fit (roleplay will definately be required). Courtship, love and such are best left purely in the grounds of roleplaying, as they are tied in with the nature of the character and are far more than a one-off event. Players who feel too uncomfortable doing so should probably avoid such matters.
In the interests of faster progress, could we get the Carnal Arts mechanic eschewed/edited/finalised before straying too far in conceptual matters? Does anyone have any other proposals to post, like to call maneouvres into question or suggest your own - all of your suggestions are appreciated.
Oh, and has anyone heard from VVrayven? She hasn’t posted in some time and it would be a shame to miss out on her contributions.
Cheers,
Death B Surfeit
Regarding your suggestions, Asra, there is indeed potential to convert our mechanical rules into a modern or even futuristic setting, but the GUCK was created with the express intention of catering for sexual matters in a fantasy environment, more specifically that of D&D. Yes, we could easily hop around converting to other contexts, but an awful lot of our content (anything magic-related, the species-specific details, yadda yadda) would be lost.
With regards the recommendation for seduction, courtship and love, the GUCK may address some of the issues: a mechanic dedicated purely to seduction (such as that presented in Ch3 of the DbS conversion) would probably be featured, but open to modifiers as the Gamesmaster sees fit (roleplay will definately be required). Courtship, love and such are best left purely in the grounds of roleplaying, as they are tied in with the nature of the character and are far more than a one-off event. Players who feel too uncomfortable doing so should probably avoid such matters.
In the interests of faster progress, could we get the Carnal Arts mechanic eschewed/edited/finalised before straying too far in conceptual matters? Does anyone have any other proposals to post, like to call maneouvres into question or suggest your own - all of your suggestions are appreciated.
Oh, and has anyone heard from VVrayven? She hasn’t posted in some time and it would be a shame to miss out on her contributions.
Cheers,
Death B Surfeit
VVrayven
First Post
Well, I'm glad I was missed and cared about.
<hugs>Sorry I have been out of contact, RL has some downsides sometimes. Onto the GUCK:
I concur completly and believe we should resolve the core mechanics and other aspects before tackling this issue. Maybe this would be better suited to discussion in the other thread?
As for the Modern Appendix... Well, I don't see iit as inconceivable, but I don't think it's neccesary. I think the core mechanic works well in modern and 3e.
As for dbs's system. I love it. It is what I have been asking for and I think he has summed up the whole system rather well. I do think we need some more arts (allow some overlap even). And clarify how a person can mix arts (can they?). Maybe each art should have seven levels of advancement?
I agree. I think this system works best. And as I pointed out before. We can include a side bar on how to include bonus sexual feats if the game warrents it and you don't want characters to sacrifice too much.
I think this is great progess. I think now we need to decide if this is the way to go, make a few more arts and flesh out the ones we have. Define them. Then:
1) Solidify the purpose of others skills ala bluff, use rope...
2) Make all the feats work with status conditions, etc...
3) Figure out exactly how we are handling NC (with regards to specialized feats, skills, and arts...)
4) Rework the spells.
5) Everything else...
Great work dbs and excellent feedback from everyone. I'll try to post some of my own stuff (arts and feats) as soon as I get the chance. My SO and I are having some interesting problems as of late, but I should be around more often now. Again, wonderful work guys. And thanks for the concern DbS,
<hugs>Death By Surfeit was correct about the unwieldiness of the alternate Sex Tricks system I'd set up. I've revised it yet again, making two major changes:
1) No ability score requirements for any particular Tricks. Instead, the bonuses conferred by most Tricks are dependent on particular ability scores and serve to enhance the base mod. This makes a Trick play to a character's natural strengths.
For example, I've rewritten the Sexual Expertise trick so that instead of transferring a flat 5 points from a char's SP check to the partner's Arousal check, the number of points that can be transferred is 2x the char's INT mod. In that way, a slightly gifted character (INT 12) can give his partner a small but still meaningful Arousal check bonus of +2, while a really sharp cookie (INT 16) could give his partner a bonus up to +6.
There are still many low-level Tricks that are not ability score-dependent and could be learned by any ordinary person, even Commoners, which seems realistic to me.
2) The second change is that I've redistributed the Tricks into nine difficulty levels (rather than only five levels), a scheme which parallels the spell level table. A character must have ranks in SP equal to or greater than the difficulty level of a Sex Trick to learn that Trick; thus no Trick requires more than nine ranks in SP, which again seems reasonable to me. A concise list of Tricks by level follows:
Level 1: Kegel Flex, Foreplay, Pinch, Envision Better Lover, Pace Yourself, Easy to Read
Level 2: Muscular Control, Physique, Intense, Striptease, Enduring, Quick Study, Delay Orgasm, Talk Dirty
Level 3: Sexual Focus, Resist Fatigue, Greedy, Selfless, Sexpot
Level 4: Bondage, Maw Stuffing, Orifice Stuffing, Sexual Combination, Instant Withdrawal, Resist Pain, Multiple Orgasms, Species Focus
Level 5: Support Partner, Coordinated, Tireless, Disease Resistance, Sexual Expertise, Responsive, Lover Focus
Level 6: Contortionist, Quick Recovery, Teasing
Level 7: Tantric Lore, Impressive Repertoire, Persuasive
Level 8: Stunning Pleasure, Everywhere at Once, Adaptive
Level 9: Overwhelming Force, Male Multiple Orgasms
(Note that many of these Tricks have been slightly reworked since my previous post, and some of those that bear the same names as Tricks from the Guide are not exactly the same. For brevity's sake, I'm refraining from posting summaries of the Tricks' mechanics.)
I understand that this is probably not the direction in which GUCK development is going. (I do like the concept of different schools of expertise, each incorporating its own progression of related Tricks.) Feel free to ignore any or all of these suggestions; I post them merely in the event that someone might find something useful. What I don't want is to bog down progress with yet another voice saying, "hey, let's scrap everything and go in this other direction" -- so take whatever's good and junk the rest.
For my part, I especially like the inclusion of very low-level Tricks that are available to persons of average ability. In the real world, almost anyone can learn the Level 1 Tricks in the list above. Many of them serve to prolong the sexual experience, which to my mind was a slight weakness in the original mechanics -- unless a male character has a marvelous CON score or many ranks in Concentration, it's statistically improbable that he'll last more than four or five minutes in the act.
Anyway, these are just some additional thoughts. Keep it going, folks.
1) No ability score requirements for any particular Tricks. Instead, the bonuses conferred by most Tricks are dependent on particular ability scores and serve to enhance the base mod. This makes a Trick play to a character's natural strengths.
For example, I've rewritten the Sexual Expertise trick so that instead of transferring a flat 5 points from a char's SP check to the partner's Arousal check, the number of points that can be transferred is 2x the char's INT mod. In that way, a slightly gifted character (INT 12) can give his partner a small but still meaningful Arousal check bonus of +2, while a really sharp cookie (INT 16) could give his partner a bonus up to +6.
There are still many low-level Tricks that are not ability score-dependent and could be learned by any ordinary person, even Commoners, which seems realistic to me.
2) The second change is that I've redistributed the Tricks into nine difficulty levels (rather than only five levels), a scheme which parallels the spell level table. A character must have ranks in SP equal to or greater than the difficulty level of a Sex Trick to learn that Trick; thus no Trick requires more than nine ranks in SP, which again seems reasonable to me. A concise list of Tricks by level follows:
Level 1: Kegel Flex, Foreplay, Pinch, Envision Better Lover, Pace Yourself, Easy to Read
Level 2: Muscular Control, Physique, Intense, Striptease, Enduring, Quick Study, Delay Orgasm, Talk Dirty
Level 3: Sexual Focus, Resist Fatigue, Greedy, Selfless, Sexpot
Level 4: Bondage, Maw Stuffing, Orifice Stuffing, Sexual Combination, Instant Withdrawal, Resist Pain, Multiple Orgasms, Species Focus
Level 5: Support Partner, Coordinated, Tireless, Disease Resistance, Sexual Expertise, Responsive, Lover Focus
Level 6: Contortionist, Quick Recovery, Teasing
Level 7: Tantric Lore, Impressive Repertoire, Persuasive
Level 8: Stunning Pleasure, Everywhere at Once, Adaptive
Level 9: Overwhelming Force, Male Multiple Orgasms
(Note that many of these Tricks have been slightly reworked since my previous post, and some of those that bear the same names as Tricks from the Guide are not exactly the same. For brevity's sake, I'm refraining from posting summaries of the Tricks' mechanics.)
I understand that this is probably not the direction in which GUCK development is going. (I do like the concept of different schools of expertise, each incorporating its own progression of related Tricks.) Feel free to ignore any or all of these suggestions; I post them merely in the event that someone might find something useful. What I don't want is to bog down progress with yet another voice saying, "hey, let's scrap everything and go in this other direction" -- so take whatever's good and junk the rest.
For my part, I especially like the inclusion of very low-level Tricks that are available to persons of average ability. In the real world, almost anyone can learn the Level 1 Tricks in the list above. Many of them serve to prolong the sexual experience, which to my mind was a slight weakness in the original mechanics -- unless a male character has a marvelous CON score or many ranks in Concentration, it's statistically improbable that he'll last more than four or five minutes in the act.
Anyway, these are just some additional thoughts. Keep it going, folks.
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