Advanced Class Codex by Green Ronin

[JoeGKushner]

Good lord, why would anyone say that?

Lotta haters out there. Some took Green Ronin's "generic" Freeport thing as spitting upon d20 itself while others like me said, "Hail and farewell." to 'em and hope that the d20 port of it is a solid book and can enjoy their other works like Mutants & Masterminds.

For others, Green Ronin will be the company that "sold" out. (Which is a weird thing since they're in essence trying to overcome weak sales by people who sale they want X and then buy Y.)

 

[Belen]

I would have loved to have seen this book, and I am disappointed that I won’t. But I am more concerned about what this says about the general health of d20 publishing community. Green Ronin has consistently been one of the best producers of d20. If they are pulling back from the market, how long before the few remaining companies start to, also? Will Paizo start feeling the pressure of competition as WotC starts releasing an adventure a month of their own?

I'm no longer concerned about the health of the industry anymore. I used to put a lot of energy into being concerned, but there is not really a point. Honestly, Green Ronin has not provided a whole lot of material that is useful for a standard D&D game in a few years. I think that has affected their d20 fantasy sales far more than a lack of desire to purchase books from GR.

Now, I have steadily purchased the GR stuff, but have not really used it. It is difficult to just throw their Black Company or TW items into a standard game. The rules are slightly different.

The only book of the advanced line that would have been immediately useful would have been the Advanced Class Codex, whch would have appealed to me and all my players. I already use two of GR's alt classes in my game (Noble and Shaman) so I can guarantee that my group would have been responsible for 6 sales through our local FLGS.

At the very least, GR could have put out the entire book and allowed for a print on demand sales. I could have gotten an awesome softcover that way.

Piecemeal PDF is a stinker.

 

[Belen]

For me, it's not that they don't support d20, it's that they don't support D&D. Some of the core books that should've come first in the Advanced Line like the races and class books, came after the medicore GMing and Player's books. Throw in numerous Mythic Vista books (each a setting and each potentially competing with each other), alternative core systems (True 20, Blue Rose, Mutants & Masterminds), etc...

I hope that they have success in it. I Love Mutants & Masterminds (one day I'll even do some review of the material) but D&D is generally where I lay my hat down and True 20, no matter how interesting it is, isn't.

I am in complete agreement here. Races and Classes would have been the best first releases for the line.

 

[Belen]

Heh. If you want to bankroll Green Ronin's print runs, I'm sure they'll be more sensitive to your input on what they consider to be risky ventures.

I'm not happy about the development myself, but I do see where they are coming from,

If they released the entire book in a PDF print-on-demand service, then I would be bankrolling my copy of the book.

 

[Psion]

For others, Green Ronin will be the company that "sold" out. (Which is a weird thing since they're in essence trying to overcome weak sales by people who sale they want X and then buy Y.)

Yeah, well, I desperately wish they'd stick with d20 as well. It would probably be fair to say that have put out some of my favorite stuff for d20 fantasy.

I really don't blame the fans for this. Those that want to buy will buy. And there has been plenty of expressions here of people gleefully willing to do just that. But ENWorld is just a fraction of the market... traditional sales arteries are sort of clogging up for d20 fantasy, with some reluctance by some retailers and distributors to accept new d20 products after getting stuck with d20 backstock after early overordering.

but D&D is generally where I lay my hat down and True 20, no matter how interesting it is, isn't.

Definitely with you there. And since the last few releases by WotC have failed to impress, I need third party publishers more than ever.

 

[Thanee]

WotC sells books on an order of magnitude higher--that's not hyperbole--than other D20 companies.

Yeah, that's not such a big surprise. Most people use the books Wizards shell out, but many don't even look at the 3rd party stuff.

Bye
Thanee

 

[JoeGKushner]

Yeah, well, I desperately wish they'd stick with d20 as well. It would probably be fair to say that have put out some of my favorite stuff for d20 fantasy.

Agreed. I still use the dwarf and drow books among others. Their piecemeal PDF thing is not for me though.

I really don't blame the fans for this. Those that want to buy will buy. And there has been plenty of expressions here of people gleefully willing to do just that. But ENWorld is just a fraction of the market... traditional sales arteries are sort of clogging up for d20 fantasy, with some reluctance by some retailers and distributors to accept new d20 products after getting stuck with d20 backstock after early overordering.

Talk is cheap. I can't recall how many times we've seen fans clamor for African style adventures and when it comes out go, "Oh, not that style. This style." Same for Northern Adventuers, etc... If people had to put their money where their mouth is with a non-refundable preorder, then we might be able to better gauge what people want.

Definitely with you there. And since the last few releases by WotC have failed to impress, I need third party publishers more than ever.

I'm kinda with you there. Hordes of the Abyss has some solid stuff but also angers me. Complete Psionic was... not bad but certainly not good. Player's Handbook II has some great feats and spells and the core classes have some potential but... And I know you didn't like Tome of Magic, so even the one book I think that was a knock out of the ball park you didn't like.

Hopefully we'll see Ronin Arts continue to do some more print products as the PDF's pile up. If they come out with a print Feat Collection that's more than just printed text, I'm there.

 

[Pinotage]

If they come out with a print Feat Collection that's more than just printed text, I'm there.

That'd be really neat! Even I'd buy that though I'm generally not one for print books.

Pinotage

 

[Psion]

I'm kinda with you there. Hordes of the Abyss has some solid stuff but also angers me. Complete Psionic was... not bad but certainly not good.

\

Yeah, though I am learning not to hate the ardent so much (might be a topic for another thread)

Player's Handbook II has some great feats and spells and the core classes have some potential but... And I know you didn't like Tome of Magic, so even the one book I think that was a knock out of the ball park you didn't like.

Yeah, well I liked it at first, but deeper inspection sort of disappointed me. The shadowcaster was one class that flew for me flavorwise, but a deeper inspection makes in seems mechanically tepid to me. Though I still think that the concept behind vestiges is a poor fit for the D&D metasetting, I think it's shaping up to be the most worthwhile mechanically, and I would gladly use it in a setting where it made sense, like the Scarred Lands.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Yeah, well I liked it at first, but deeper inspection sort of disappointed me. The shadowcaster was one class that flew for me flavorwise, but a deeper inspection makes in seems mechanically tepid to me. Though I still think that the concept behind vestiges is a poor fit for the D&D metasetting, I think it's shaping up to be the most worthwhile mechanically, and I would gladly use it in a setting where it made sense, like the Scarred Lands.

Didn't like the Shadowcaster myself.

But man, Pact Magic seems like a perfect for the D&D Metasetting. There are so many great names and historical bits that were just thrown away that putting a system in place to gain power from them is well, awesome to me.

And despite it's problems, I like the section on naming magic too.