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[Adventure] New Cyre Borderlands (Judge: )

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evilbob

Explorer
Unit 16 looks at Jarren and looks at his spirit companion and then motions to the spot just behind the dwarf.

[sblock=ooc]Anti: unless you have a better plan, want to help set up Unit 16's encounter power? If you used Capturing Jaws and put your spirit at M35, 16 could get to O33 and then use your spirit to flank. The only power he has left is a big single-target hit that leaves the target prone. Also, since the dwarf couldn't possibly attack Grys, he'd have to incur Grys's mark. That's just one idea - if you have a better one that's cool too!

Also, I don't know if you have any heals left, but I wouldn't say no to them. :) It's all good either way![/sblock]
[sblock=reminder]I will be out of the country starting tomorrow! I may have spotty access here and there but I wouldn't count on it. Antithetist will be posting for me in this game - I've pretty much told you guys my intention for this round and after that I'm out of everything anyway. I should be back around June 13![/sblock]
 

KarinsDad

First Post
[sblock=Psychic PCs]
I was wondering if people would be willing to roleplay their plans In Character as opposed to Out of Character.

Sorry, but it's one of my pet peeves when people write that their player doesn't say anything out loud, but just points at a spot on the ground and the other PC is supposed to intuit this complicated set of plans and then the first player OOCs those plans.

Obviously, a little of this is unavoidable and I'm not the DM and I don't want to tell anyone how to run their PC, but I vastly prefer plans being said out loud so that the other PCs and NPCs can react to them as well.

If a PC says something out loud, my PC can react and say something in response. Not to pick on evilbob here (since several people have done this now), but suggesting to the other player exactly which squares to move to and which powers to use and such OOC takes this from a roleplaying game to a OOC tactics game. I find it vastly more fun if PCs say things in character and once in a while, the other player misinterprets and has his PC do something unexpected as opposed to the exact plan written out OOC so that it is crystal clear. The former is roleplaying, the latter is not.

And like I said, this is just a pet peeve of mine. Anyone can obviously blow me off and do what they like as long as Rick is ok with it.


Also just FYI, Sudden Call is a once per encounter feat now. This was erratted in April. Antithetist has been still running it as often as he wants as per post 145 and 173. People probably should check the errata every month for their PCs because LEB does auto-acquire the errata as official rules.
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evilbob

Explorer
[sblock=ooc]I completely understand and respect KD's opinion on how he finds fun in a D&D game. Just to be balanced, here is a different perspective. Another way one can find fun in a D&D game is to revel in the tactical aspects of it; to discover the best possible tactical movements and situations which lead to high levels of efficiency and effectiveness on the part of the PCs. It is difficult, if not impossible, to facilitate this level of efficacy without some level of direct communication. Therefore, in order to maximize effective tactical situations, some OOC chatter would be appropriate.

Another in-game way to look at it is that this is also our way of making up "out of character" for what our characters could actually do "in character". Because none of us actually have 100 years' experience fighting in battles all over the globe, none of the players really have the ability to "act" in a way that their far more experienced PCs may behave. We already have some level of abstraction here to that effect - no one says how exactly their blades fall, just that they "attack". Because of this, a sort of shorthand can be done "in character" to represent what an outside observer with little actual battle experience might see (i.e. us) and the "out of character" chatter is there to fill in the gaps that the other characters would already know because of their level of experience.

For example, in this case, Unit 16 may simply look like he is nodding in a general direction, but his and Jarren's level of battle experience would actually communicate the intent of his nod far more effectively. Additionally, going back to the first point, this allows me, as a player, to be extremely effective in my use of battle tactics in order to be a more cohesive unit for the team.

I don't think I'll have time to post again for a while so this is all I have to say for now, but fundamentally it comes down to two different perspectives on what is fun and neither is bad or right. If multiple people in this group have different perspectives, we may just balance our actions as best we can to support both styles of play to some extent.[/sblock]
 

KarinsDad

First Post
[sblock=ooc]
It is difficult, if not impossible, to facilitate this level of efficacy without some level of direct communication.
[/sblock]

[sblock=OOC]
Ok, this is the last post I will make on this because I do understand that different people find fun in different ways and I don't want to drag the thread here either.

Several points:

1) I believe that this "It is difficult, if not impossible" claim here is mostly inaccurate.

evilbob could write:

"Jarren, Capture Jaws on the Dwarf" and then motions to the spot just behind the dwarf.

This gives Antithetist nearly as much information as the direct communication option, but it's in character. This option also has the advantage of possible miscommunication because the game isn't Chess. Antithetist could misinterpret which square Susan wanted him to have the companion go to.

Tactics are not absolute, so if Antithetist does decide to follow evilbob's suggestion and doesn't pick the exact square that evilbob was thinking of, it's probably not going to hurt the game overall and it really isn't going to hurt the tactics too much either. In fact, without evilbob explaining his rationale, Antithetist might come up with a better idea on where to move that he wouldn't have come up with by following evilbob's suggestion to the letter of the law.


2) This is my number one reason for limited OOC tactics. I want every player to have fun. I'm a firm believer in having each player play their own PC. I've seen quite a few games over the years where the players who are experts in the game mechanics partially browbeat other players into doing specific actions in the name of "efficient tactics".

Playing your own PC is harder to do when other players "out of turn" make detailed suggestions. It's worse when the suggestions are OOC and to the nth degree of detail and probably tactically superior. Even without realizing it, other players can feel pressured to follow those suggestions.

Grys has made suggestions as well. In character. But they were generic. For example: "Everyone but Susan, take the Chain Hobgoblins out first.".

This is a general suggestion. It is in character and it suggests that certain PCs do certain things. People might feel compelled to follow the suggestion, but again, might not. The pressure to move to exact squares and use exact powers are not included in this suggestion. The tactical purpose was to increase the groups action economy by taking out the foes that could do three attacks per round before the ones that could do two attacks per round.

It's one thing to ask another player to follow a certain general course of action or ask him to use a specific power once in a while, it's totally another to suggest the other PC's exact actions for a round OOC. YMMV.


3) When suggestions are made In Character as opposed to Out of Character, the other PCs can respond In Character. It's extremely difficult to talk in character about a suggestion if the suggestion is OOC. It's not roleplaying to have telepathy about what other PCs are thinking.

For example, if Grys would have asked everyone to take out the chain hobgoblins out in detail OOC, then Mythra couldn't have responded with: I don't recall anyone electing you as party leader!.

This roleplaying is lost if the PCs are not communicating in character.

Note: some players also write down what their PC is thinking "In Character". For example, "Thundarr thinks the strange Cleric is evil". This is a real bad roleplaying habit as well IMO. Communicated PC thoughts should be out loud. Otherwise, they shouldn't be communicated.


4) In 30+ years of gaming, I have rarely seen this level of communication at a table game. An occasional "flank that guy", or "that guy is bloodied, attack him", or "you'll need to move in these squares to avoid Opportunity Attacks" can occur. But, asking a player to move to specific squares and to use specific powers is a bit extreme. I have rarely seen that at a table game.


5) This point here is rules important. If a PC has telepathy, the player should be allowed to use that power. Without that type of power, doing these types of tactics telepathically is giving the PCs a power that they do not have. I don't think PCs should get intra-PC telepathy for free. To me, OOC tactics is the same as breaking the telepathy rules. The players who build PCs with telepathy are the only players who should get this privilege. IMO.


6) In every game I have played, there is the chance of "Aw shoot, you totally ruined what I was going to do for my PC". It happened in my Pathfinder game yesterday when the Ranger moved up to attack some foes off to one side that my Wizard was going to cast Web on. This "the other PC did something unexpected" element of the game is fun. I now have to react to the changed situation. This fun "have to handle the unexpected from other PCs" doesn't happen as often if the PCs discuss their tactics ahead of time OOC in detail.


7) And finally, if several players are more comfortable discussing specific OOC tactics, they can PM each other and have all of the discussions they want. This allows those two or three players to go nuts on tactics while not imposing OOC detailed tactics on the rest of the players.


Personally, I think everyone should go out of their way to roleplay their PCs and to roleplay tactical suggestions. This adds to roleplaying instead of subtracting from it. But, I do understand that other players want to take the short cuts and turn the game into a game of Chess so that their PCs "win the encounter efficiently". That can be fun, but it's fun at the expense of the players who want to roleplay PC interactions. IMO.
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Antithetist

First Post
Jarren responds quickly to Susan's sign, remembering the manoeuvre that they had attempted to execute on the Owlbear. His serpentine spirit companion reappears behind the Dwarf and lunges for its prey with the distended jaws of a python, aiming to distract and incapacitate it as Susan finishes it off with a crushing blow. Unfortunately - in an unpleasant reminder of the same troubles they faced against the Owlbear - the Dwarf nimbly avoids the grappling jaws and still has plent of time to turn and size up the attack of the onrushing Warforged.

Unit 16 has no more luck than the spirit snake, as his mighty swing goes wildly astray and the promising manoeuvre once again falls flat.


[sblock=OOC - Tactical Discussion]I think there's something to be said for both sides of the debate. In this specific case, though, I think evilbob was 100% right: after all, U16 and Jarren have fought together before, and in fact have used this exact same double-team move. The OOC explanation of exactly what U16 wanted was possibly too much, depending on how Rick sees it, but the idea of the two characters setting up the maneouvre with just a nod is not much of a stretch.

It's also a moot point since I'm posting actions for both characters this turn.[/sblock]


[sblock=OOC - Jarren's AP, and Sudden Call]Rick, I noticed that your last status post had Jarren having used his AP. This confused me until I checked my own last status post and saw that I had marked his AP as 0 - my bad, this came from a copy/paste error. He hasn't used an AP in this combat.

However, with KD having called my attention to the errata on Sudden Call - thanks for that by the way - it strikes me that I've performed a number of illegal moves this combat which would be much too hard to retcon. Some of them were fairly inconsequential (I only zipped the spirit around with Free Actions because I could, and could just as easily have used Minor Actions to do it), some of them less so. Maybe a retroactive ruling that Jarren used an AP (and/or docking a healing surge or two?) would be a good way of squaring the issue? Up to you of course Rick.[/sblock]


[sblock=Jarren's Actions and Rolls]Minor Action - Call Spirit Companion to M35.

Capturing Jaws on the Dwarf: 1d20+9=13 vs Reflex, surely a miss.[/sblock]

[sblock=Unit 16's Actions and Rolls]Move Action - Move to O33.

Standard Action - Earthgrasp Strike on Dwarf: 1d20+10=11 vs AC, auto-miss.[/sblock]

[sblock=Jarren Quick Stats]Jarren Star Gazer Male Shifter Shaman 4
Medium natural humanoid
Initiative +4; Senses Passive Insight 22, Passive Perception 24, Low-light vision

HP 14/43 Bloodied 21, Surge Value 10, Surges 9/10
AC 18; Fortitude 19, Reflex 18, Will 21
Saving Throws +0
Speed 8

Action Points: 1

Encounter Powers: Healing Spirit x2
Capturing Jaws
Certain Threat
Speak With Spirits
Bonds of the Clan
Razorclaw Shifting
Second Wind

Daily Powers: Spirit of the Healing Flood

Daily Item Powers: (1/milestone)
Potion of Clarity
Bear Spirit Armor

Consumables: Potion of Healing x2
Potion of Clarity x2
197 gp[/sblock]

[sblock=Unit 16]
Unit 16 Warforged Warden 4
Initiative: +3, Passive Perception: 17, Passive Insight: 12, Senses: Normal
AC:22, Fort:18, Reflex:14, Will:14
HP:4/57, 8 temp HP, Bloodied:28, Surge Value:14, Surges left:12/13
Action Points/Daily Item Uses Left/Milestones: 1/0/0
Powers:
Font of Life
Nature's Wrath
Warden's Fury / Warden's Grasp
Weight of Earth
Earth Shield Strike

Warforged Resolve
Roots of Stone
Earthgrasp Strike
Warden's Tempest
Second Wind

Form of Winter's Herald - Form of Winter's Herald Attack
Potion of Clarity (used effect)

Important Stuff:
- makes lots of immediate interrupts/reactions/OAs

Conditions:

Full sheet: Unit 16[/sblock]
 

Mezegis

First Post
Ryda glares at the dwarf, daring him to attack her.

[sblock=OOC]Dwarf is up right? It's been a few days, want to make sure I didn't miss something.[/sblock]
 

Luinnar

First Post
[sblock=ooc]
So it has been over two weeks since Rick Roll has logged on according to the LEB thread.

I was wondering what everyone thought about it. We could wait longer to see if he comes back, or there a couple options options that renau1g gave:

1) The judge takes over and runs to completion
2) Someone takes over and runs to completion
3) The judge ends the adventure after the current encounter in some sort of wrap up.

I think we have a good group, and it would be nice to continue to adventure together if everyone if willing. It would be nice if we could either find someone to finish the adventure, or we finish the encounter and find a new adventure needing a party.

What does everyone else think?[/sblock]
 

renau1g

First Post
[sblock=ooc]
Just an FYI, I've heard from someone who may be able to keep it going. Give me a bit to sort things out and hopefully we can move it along... [/sblock]
 


evilbob

Explorer
[sblock=back!]Hey guys, I'm back! So... wow. I'm sorry that the DM seems to have disappeared - I can say that I am playing in another game where RR is a character and he hasn't posted there since before I left, either. At least we're down to the last bit of combat, even if we are having a horrible time hitting this guy. Hopefully it'll all be over soon once we get started back up. And thank you, Antithetist, for playing 16, even if it was just for one round! :) I am impressed at how accurately you managed to capture the spirit of this character, even going to far as to roll a natural 1! ;) I'd give you some experience points, but apparently I can't and I have no idea why.

Help us Obi-R1; you're our only hope![/sblock]
 

Mezegis

First Post
[sblock=My 2 cents]I would feel kinda weird running and finishing someones adventure without them. This is Rickroll's game, I feel it should stay that way. We aren't even that far into it really, 1 skill challange and part of a fight. If it comes down to voting, I would go for Option 3, we wrap this encounter up, and then head back to the tavern.

If it's 4 to 1 on wanting to continue with the new GM, I will, with no hard feelings, just wanted to add my thoughts on the issue.[/sblock]
 

KarinsDad

First Post
[sblock= My 2 cents]
I agree with Mezegis that we should end this encounter and head back to the tavern. It is RR's game and if he comes back after some serious issue, he should be able to continue the campaign if the opportunity still exists.

I also agree with Luinnar that we should keep this group together if everyone is willing. The group is well balanced and I think the intra-group RPing has some real potential.
[/sblock]
 

Luinnar

First Post
[sblock=ooc]
Good point, it is Rick Roll's adventure. At least we should finish the encounter though for xp, we are almost done.
[/sblock]
 
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evilbob

Explorer
[sblock=ooc]I am cool with Mezegis's suggestion, although I also don't have strong feelings either way.[/sblock]
 

Antithetist

First Post
[sblock=OOC]I'll add my vote to the consensus on wrapping up after this encounter and then heading back to the tavern. It seems silly for someone to go to the trouble of running another DM's game when we're at a perfectly reasonable stopping point right here.[/sblock]
 

renau1g

First Post
[sblock=Judge]
Ok, so it seems you want to call it after this encounter? I can tell you will likely defeat these enemies without a TPK so it shouldn't be an issue hand-waving the final couple rounds. I will work on a wrap-up post if that's cool and get you back to town? [/sblock]
 

KarinsDad

First Post
[sblock=Judge]
Ok, so it seems you want to call it after this encounter? I can tell you will likely defeat these enemies without a TPK so it shouldn't be an issue hand-waving the final couple rounds. I will work on a wrap-up post if that's cool and get you back to town? [/sblock]

[sblock=OOC]
That sounds good to me.

Could you also calculate encounter xp and player reward xp as well renau1g? Thanks.
[/sblock]
 

renau1g

First Post
ooc - I will do my best. I believe RickRoll deviated from the encounter he sent in to the judges. There were no elite enemies in this first encounter.
 

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