Adventuring Tactics Masterclass: Giants.
- Thread starter nikolai
- Start date
I forgot to mention the Giant Killer (slayer - IDHMBWM) from the Silver Marches. I don't like it nearly as much as the foe hunter which is less specific, but that is personal preference.
Also, for the dire weasel tactic - you could always make the weasel invisible to make it live longer.
Also, for the dire weasel tactic - you could always make the weasel invisible to make it live longer.
nikolai
First Post
What's a cleric or rogue to do?
I'm pleased the thread's going so well and it's fantastic we've got the Piratecat seal of approval.
There's been a lot ideas on tactics for Fighters and Wizards. With the standard practice being to use spells to weaken giants and then reduce their hit points by peltting them from range.
Any ideas on what should clerics and rogues should do?
Giants can dish out and soak up massive amounts of damage, so healing is going to be important - but very dangerous - and sneak attack may be risky to perform and isn't that lethal against a healthy giant.
yours,
nikoali.
I'm pleased the thread's going so well and it's fantastic we've got the Piratecat seal of approval.
There's been a lot ideas on tactics for Fighters and Wizards. With the standard practice being to use spells to weaken giants and then reduce their hit points by peltting them from range.
Any ideas on what should clerics and rogues should do?
Giants can dish out and soak up massive amounts of damage, so healing is going to be important - but very dangerous - and sneak attack may be risky to perform and isn't that lethal against a healthy giant.
yours,
nikoali.
Clerics
You're right that clerical healing is risky. Since giants have reach, touching a comrade in melee will subject the cleric to attacks. (If the cleric starts out adjacent to his ally, he probably draws an AoO for casting. If he casts out of range and then moves in to touch, he is probably subject to a full attack next round.)
One way around this is to cast Sanctuary. Since giants have such low Will saves, there's a decent chance that they'll fail. That lets the cleric move through their threatened areas with impunity.
Another workaround, perhaps counterintuitively, is to concentrate on offense. If you can take the giants down quickly, they won't have time to do much damage, which means less healing will be required.
The offensive spells a cleric wants to use here are those that take advantage of the low Will saves. Hold Monster is of course the best. In a pinch a Command to "flee", or even a Random Action, could buy some time or split up a small group.
You're right that clerical healing is risky. Since giants have reach, touching a comrade in melee will subject the cleric to attacks. (If the cleric starts out adjacent to his ally, he probably draws an AoO for casting. If he casts out of range and then moves in to touch, he is probably subject to a full attack next round.)
One way around this is to cast Sanctuary. Since giants have such low Will saves, there's a decent chance that they'll fail. That lets the cleric move through their threatened areas with impunity.
Another workaround, perhaps counterintuitively, is to concentrate on offense. If you can take the giants down quickly, they won't have time to do much damage, which means less healing will be required.
The offensive spells a cleric wants to use here are those that take advantage of the low Will saves. Hold Monster is of course the best. In a pinch a Command to "flee", or even a Random Action, could buy some time or split up a small group.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Re: Clerics
"Command" is a great idea: many commands (e.g., "Die!") deny an opponent their dex bonus, allowing rogues to sneak-attack. A command to "Die!" can give the fighters the opportunity they need to approach the giant without incurring an AoO. Mass-command, of course, is great against lots of giants.
Rogues will probably want to use missile weapons: not only do their low hit points make melee with a giant very dangerous, but they also may have trouble reaching a giant's vitals when in hand-to-hand combat. Improved invisibility is almost a must-have for a rogue fighting giants.
Consider having grenadelike weapons available, to help overcome a giant's tremendous natural armor bonus.
Druids, if they're lucky, will have a warp wood spell available. Giants often fight with weapons with wooden hafts; destroying these weapons will definitely help. A rusting grasp spell may also prove useful, since giants generally wield weapons too large for the party to use anyway. But the touch range of rusting grasp makes it risky. They should keep their animal companions out of combat, unless the companions are under the influence of Animal Growth. Druids have access to fire and cold spells, and should prepare them if fighting the appropriate kind of giant.
Finally, druids have some great movement-limiting spells, e.g., spike growth. If you can get most of the party into the air and prepare the battlefield with these spells, you can make it much harder for the giants to bring their melee power into play.
Daniel
"Command" is a great idea: many commands (e.g., "Die!") deny an opponent their dex bonus, allowing rogues to sneak-attack. A command to "Die!" can give the fighters the opportunity they need to approach the giant without incurring an AoO. Mass-command, of course, is great against lots of giants.
Rogues will probably want to use missile weapons: not only do their low hit points make melee with a giant very dangerous, but they also may have trouble reaching a giant's vitals when in hand-to-hand combat. Improved invisibility is almost a must-have for a rogue fighting giants.
Consider having grenadelike weapons available, to help overcome a giant's tremendous natural armor bonus.
Druids, if they're lucky, will have a warp wood spell available. Giants often fight with weapons with wooden hafts; destroying these weapons will definitely help. A rusting grasp spell may also prove useful, since giants generally wield weapons too large for the party to use anyway. But the touch range of rusting grasp makes it risky. They should keep their animal companions out of combat, unless the companions are under the influence of Animal Growth. Druids have access to fire and cold spells, and should prepare them if fighting the appropriate kind of giant.
Finally, druids have some great movement-limiting spells, e.g., spike growth. If you can get most of the party into the air and prepare the battlefield with these spells, you can make it much harder for the giants to bring their melee power into play.
Daniel
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
I advise caution with Improved Invisibility.
Giants can do a lot of damage. If too many PCs go invisible for a tough combat, those that remain visible draw more attacks each round. That can result in sudden PC deaths.
Sometimes it is best to coax the opposition into spreading the love around.
I would encourage the Rogue to use Blink, Mirror Image, Blur, etc. to boost their defenses instead.
An alternative tactic is to team up with the Cleric. Holy Smite or Order's Wrath (Reflex save or blind for 1 round), and Sound Burst (Will save or stunned for 1 round) will open up giants to sneak attacks. These are AoE spells so if you can hit multiple giants one of them is bound to fail.
Giants can do a lot of damage. If too many PCs go invisible for a tough combat, those that remain visible draw more attacks each round. That can result in sudden PC deaths.
Sometimes it is best to coax the opposition into spreading the love around.
I would encourage the Rogue to use Blink, Mirror Image, Blur, etc. to boost their defenses instead.
An alternative tactic is to team up with the Cleric. Holy Smite or Order's Wrath (Reflex save or blind for 1 round), and Sound Burst (Will save or stunned for 1 round) will open up giants to sneak attacks. These are AoE spells so if you can hit multiple giants one of them is bound to fail.
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Wippit Guud
First Post
Whip out a couple of expanded glitterdust spells. Mass blind with their low will save, should be able to get 2 or 3 in a group. (or even 2 side by side with a standard one)
Sir Whiskers
First Post
For clerics:
*Combine Zone of Truth with Enthrall to gain information before starting a fight.
*Sanctuary at the start of the fight, then start casting Bless, Prayer, healing spells, other non-attack spells.
*Entropic Shield (personal only) for 20% miss chance with ranged attacks. Use Imbue with Spell Ability to allow other spellcasters to cast Entropic Shield on themselves.
*Command and Greater Command ('nuff said)
*Insect Plague, then have the arcane casters throw lightning, cold, and acid area effect spells in the same area.
*Blade Barrier to split up the opposition and cover the party's flanks. If you can arrange it, cast it at the only path available to the giants for getting out of your Insect Plague.
*Antilife Shell blocks most living creatures (including giants and their animal friends) in a 10' radius around the cleric, no save. As with Blade Barrier, can create a great bottleneck, if terrain permits. Or, if the party's in trouble, have the sor/wiz cast Rope Trick while within the area effect of the Antilife Shell. The party flees into the interdimensional space (cleric last) for healing and buffing, coming out when the giants have (hopefully) dropped their guard a bit. Don't forget to have the cleric pull the rope in after himself.
*Combine Zone of Truth with Enthrall to gain information before starting a fight.
*Sanctuary at the start of the fight, then start casting Bless, Prayer, healing spells, other non-attack spells.
*Entropic Shield (personal only) for 20% miss chance with ranged attacks. Use Imbue with Spell Ability to allow other spellcasters to cast Entropic Shield on themselves.
*Command and Greater Command ('nuff said)
*Insect Plague, then have the arcane casters throw lightning, cold, and acid area effect spells in the same area.
*Blade Barrier to split up the opposition and cover the party's flanks. If you can arrange it, cast it at the only path available to the giants for getting out of your Insect Plague.
*Antilife Shell blocks most living creatures (including giants and their animal friends) in a 10' radius around the cleric, no save. As with Blade Barrier, can create a great bottleneck, if terrain permits. Or, if the party's in trouble, have the sor/wiz cast Rope Trick while within the area effect of the Antilife Shell. The party flees into the interdimensional space (cleric last) for healing and buffing, coming out when the giants have (hopefully) dropped their guard a bit. Don't forget to have the cleric pull the rope in after himself.
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