(advice) How many kobolds does it take to tpk a 3rd level party?

[Ragmon]

One kobold, and large a investment in Craft (Traps) skill.
And an access to this book: that was removed by a Moderator because EN World does not support copyright infringement. Please don't link to sites that give access to blatantly infringing materials.
And I'm not even kidding. No self respecting kobold would go into a fight without an advantage. Their not dumb.

And if you want to do a simple kobold going into the hero blender, then try this:
- Heroes get the upper hand with them surprising the kobolds. The initial guards might die.
- Now after the alarm goes of, the kobolds move into the inner area of their lair, removing the safety from their traps.
- Heroes have to work their way trough the traps, maybe weakening them.
- Then when the heroes make it into the inner sanctum they find a ragtag bunch of kobold ready for a fight.
- Oh But its a trap, and a bunch of kobols, 2/3 of the full kobold forces are on higher ground, maybe even places where you can't get there on foot, using ranged weapons to pepper the heroes.
- And add some traps into the inner sanctum so you make the casters move around. Like a trap in the doorway where the heroes stand.

IMO this is proper kobold tactics. Using tactics, traps and teamwork.

 

[delericho]

One kobold, and large a investment in Craft (Traps) skill.
And an access to this book: that was removed by a Moderator because EN World does not support copyright infringement. Please don't link to sites that give access to blatantly infringing materials.

And I'm not even kidding. No self respecting kobold would go into a fight without an advantage. Their not dumb.

At Wis 9, they're not exactly the tactical geniuses they're sometimes made out to be. Plus, that large investment in Craft(trapmaking) can boost the average level 1 kobold to a mighty +6 on that roll (4 ranks +2 racial bonus). That's something of a limitation on the quality of the traps they can actually build.

 

[Dwimmerlied]

Are you serious though? Is this an actual TPK attempt?

muahaha. well actually, nah. that would suck (i guess). The thread's title was to garner some views In fact, I just wanted some advice to help guaging which kobold would be the "one too many." That's my main question. Between 20 to 40 "straight up" kobolds seems to be the idea so far.

I like some of the devious ideas, and I think I will implement them on the character's second foray, when the kobolds are more prepared. I particularly like the murder-hole hall. Thats a classic, and I wouldn't be satisfied if I never implemented this. I'm also thinking of lots of strength- and dexterity- damaging poisons in order to even the odds.
[MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION]; that's one of those things I notice: Game fluff often suggests mechanics that the crunch not only does not support, but makes unlikely . As an aside, IIRC (and im sure i dont), craft ranks more or less dictate not what you can make, but how quickly you can make it?

 

[delericho]

[MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION]; that's one of those things I notice: Game fluff often suggests mechanics that the crunch not only does not support, but makes unlikely . As an aside, IIRC (and im sure i dont), craft ranks more or less dictate not what you can make, but how quickly you can make it?

Not quite. If you fail your Craft check by 4 or less, you make no progress in the given week, and if you fail by 5 or more you ruin some of your raw materials. It's also important to note that a natural '20' on a skill check is not an automatic success.

That means that the 'standard' kobold from the SRD cannot make any traps with a DC of 23 or more - he only has a +2 to his check, and so cannot succeed on the roll. (Of course, if he has assistance, masterwork tools, or some other source of a bonus, that equation changes.) Further, for anything with a DC of 12 or higher, he can't take-10, and is going to be failing quite frequently - he might be able to build the traps, but it will be a slow, costly, and frustrating process.

Nonetheless, I do tend to agree with you wrt kobolds - the fluff indicates they are sneaky traps-builders, but their stats don't really bear that out. Actually, I half wish the MM had presented a sample lair for these creatures, or at least that it had provided sample traps for them to use. Or, failing that, that it had at least referenced those traps from the DMG that were most suitable for kobolds to use.

 

[Ragmon]

At Wis 9, they're not exactly the tactical geniuses they're sometimes made out to be. Plus, that large investment in Craft(trapmaking) can boost the average level 1 kobold to a mighty +6 on that roll (4 ranks +2 racial bonus). That's something of a limitation on the quality of the traps they can actually build.

Em, well its 4 ranks + 2 Racial + 3 Skill focus = 9 in total.
- a probable +2 from being assisted, and a probable Masterwork Tools +2, that making it a total of 13 at level one.

On another note, that should be a 10 wis since Kobolds don't get a -2 to wis...but what ever.

So kobolds should be able to craft traps from DC 15 (cause 1 is a fail) to DC 33. On a take 10 its 23, so yea.
There a competent Lawful Evil bunch.

 

[delericho]

Em, well its 4 ranks + 2 Racial + 3 Skill focus = 9 in total.
- a probable +2 from being assisted, and a probable Masterwork Tools +2, that making it a total of 13 at level one.

I would dispute the "probable" masterwork tools. And although the default kobold from the SRD could choose a better feat than Alertness, I'm not sure Skill Focus is the optimal choice either.

On another note, that should be a 10 wis since Kobolds don't get a -2 to wis...but what ever.

Again, the default kobold in the SRD has Wis 9. That's the only reason I used that value.

So kobolds should be able to craft traps from DC 15 (cause 1 is a fail) to DC 33. On a take 10 its 23, so yea.
There a competent Lawful Evil bunch.

A natural '1' on a skill check is not an auto-fail.

 

[N'raac]

I would dispute the "probable" masterwork tools. And although the default kobold from the SRD could choose a better feat than Alertness, I'm not sure Skill Focus is the optimal choice either.

Without the tools, DC 21 is "take 10". And one kobold in a huge tribe, clearly what is envisioned here, taking Skill Focus doesn't seem so far out. The Master Trapper of the complex might even have a higher WIS. Even one in 200 kobolds with Skill Focus, masterwork tools and a 10 WIS puts take 10 up to 24.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That's a good point. There's no reason there can't be a 4th to 6th-level kobold expert with high Int and decent Wis designing the traps.

 

[Ragmon]

A natural '1' on a skill check is not an auto-fail.

Well alright then then starting from DC 14, we house ruled the fail on a nat 1, forgot it was not per RAW.

Even one in 200 kobolds with Skill Focus, masterwork tools and a 10 WIS puts take 10 up to 24.

Craft is an INT skill, I just mentioned the wis cause they have 9 but they don't get a -2 as per character creation.

 

[emanresu]

lets be honest the players are going to have AC's in the teens, lets say the avg meat shield AC is 18, the avg hit points would be what about 25? Its going to take a few attacks from each Kobold to mount a serious threat. They cant do that in melee without suffering major losses, so why do it? The Kobolds dont have a death wish, right? So they would use missiles, javelins, throwing knives bows, heck rocks! Oil to cause players to slip n fall (like grease spell) catch on fire, traps, dusts to blind players, tangle foot bags...Dont forget the Kobold witch or shaman may have color spray, pyrotechnics 2 of many strong spells that could drastically alter the outcome of the fight.

How about a weak poison? Maybe they, like the Vietcong,dip their weapons in their own fecal matter to cause immediate infections & disease.

The inviorment can make the Kobolds very strong, water trap anybody?