Advice needed on tactics

[Cross]

Hi, all. I've been running into a bit of a problem recently in my gaming group. We have a group of 6 characters, all roughly 10-11th level. We've got:

Earth Genasi Ftr 9
Sorceror 10
Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10
Rogue 11
Ftr/Rng/Order of the Bow Init 10
Tiefling Monk 10

I play the monk, and lately, I'm finding that I'm not able to have much impact or use in combat. Usually, it goes a little something like this:

1) Sorceror drops some mass damage hatred on team evil.
2) Archer/Sniper twangs off a full attack with his heavy, self-reloading crossbow of death, dropping about half the enemies left standing.
3) Fighter mops up the rest, power attacking for +16 points per shot.

Mostly, I stand in one place, and hope I might get to hurt something. *shrug* It's a little frustrating, mostly because I tried to build this monk correctly. I've got decent stats, good equipment, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how to make a contribution to this group. We don't need a scout (have two already). Don't need another warrior (honestly, the fighter is a meat shield for the sniper anyway), and besides, the damage I put out is so light compared to the 37 point-per-hit fighter or 20 point-per-bolt sniper, it's almost a waste to attack.

Thoughts? I guess I'm looking for some interesting tactics I can try out, ways I can support my team without getting in the way, particularly when fighting monsters with DR or when fighting critters that can't be disarmed.

BTW: In case it's helpful:

Jalani X'chh, Tieflling Monk 10
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 20, CHA 6.

Attacks:
Unarmed Strike (Flurry): +12/+12/+7 at 2d8 + 2 (Specialized gear bumps damage up a notch)
MW Quarterstaff (Flurry): +10/+10/+5 at 1d6 + 2 (+18 on disarm attempt)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Dodge, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist (DC 24 with special gear), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed).

Skills: Balance 12, Climb 9, Hide 19, Jump 29, Listen 14, Move Silent 13, Spot 23, Tumble 19

 

[Jdvn1]

I'd help out the Fighter by providing Flanking bonuses, attacking defensively, and tripping.

or something like that.

 

[two]

sorry

Barring some ultra-specialized build, which yours is not, you simply are never going to be much of a straight-up melee battler.

2d8+2 at 10th level. Honestly, I'm not trying to make you feel bad. It's OK for a monk. It's horrible for a melee combatant. That's 4 - 18 points, averaging 11. Your boring level1 barbarian in rage, with 20 strength, using a 2-handed sword, does 1d12+7 without any power attack, i.e. 8 - 19 points. At first level. By level 10, that's gonna be way up there.

Listen -- Monks are not very good melee attackers. So do all the other stuff. You are good at disarming -- so disarm the biggest, baddest enemy. Or trip them. Run up and grapple the enemy wizard. Stand in front of the sorcerer and defend him/her. That's your role.

Do stealth stuff when alone, perhaps scout ahead of the party... be the last one standing with great saves and evasion, and help the party heal/retreat from what otherwise might be a TPK.

That's your role.

Melee.

No.

Don't play a monk if you want to mix it up (barring some very freakish specialized min/max builds).

 

[ARandomGod]

Thoughts? I guess I'm looking for some interesting tactics I can try out, ways I can support my team without getting in the way, particularly when fighting monsters with DR or when fighting critters that can't be disarmed.

Kill the enemy mage. It's the only thing you can do and the only purpose for the monk...
Feel free to take the MageSlayer feat. It's pretty nice, and will help you kill the mage.

If there are no enemy mages, feel free to kill the one in your own party. I mean, just because. Of course, using that reasoning you *may* lose your lawful alignment. But then you and the sorc can roll up NEW sorcs, and you can lay down the smack together.

 

[Storyteller01]

Agree with two on this. You can't get the damage the others can (full action crossbow attacks!?!?), so go for tactics that harass the opponents for the others (OA has some good feats for this). trips, disarms, stunning attacks (great mage killer there), defensive throw, etc. Might want to look into Void use from the Rokugan setting. I believe it can be used to imprve damage, and other interesting feats use it as a prereq.

 

[two]

frankly, it's too late

Seriously, I think it's too late to even get resonable damage output for levels 10+. The monk's next feat is level 12...at which point you are still doing 2d6+2 or maybe 2d6+3 (from a strength boost item). That's it, you are done. It's not going to work.

My serious advice is this: don't act like a melee combatant, don't think like one, don't try to be one. If you try to be one, you will be ineffective and/or dead. But don't despair... do other things, which can be equally fun.

As I metnioned before, you could focus on stealth/hiding, on scouting... giving good info to the party is worth (sometimes) much more than some xtra melee uummph.

What if you could sneak ahead, take out the enemy wizard, and flee back to the party? That's a good one.

Or use your wonderful movement to position yourself for maximum enemy owie via AOO's or flanking or whatever. Or get yourself a cohort (from a level 12 feat), perhaps a rogue, and do the flank-n-whack routine.

Get a ring of invisiblity. Boots of silence. Cloak of the Mountebank. 25 tanglefoot bags. 20 potions for every occasion. Be the PC that has just the thing for the strange situation. etc. That's always fun to aim for, and when you can pull it off -- it's like a x4 heavy pick critical.

GM "what do you mean the Monk pulls out a "Tree" feather token and throws it in front of the charging minotaur?"
Monk "see right here? I got two of 'em, in fact."
GM "drat. That's gonna kinda hurt."

 

[Cross]

Sigh. Pretty much what I thought.

Hm. After reading your posts, I have to agree with you. The monk is not a damage machine. Unfortunate, especially with that ever-increasing unarmed strike damage...but seriously, without all the BAB and Power Attack points to back it up, it's just not that big a gun.

So, let me ask this then. I've been contemplating a multiclass into Rogue. It's a favored class for the tiefling, and sneak dice can't hurt if I'm doing the flanking thing. With Ascetic Rogue from Complete Adventurer, I won't lose out on unarmed progression either, not to mention gaining a +2 DC on my stuns if I combine them with the sneak attack (DC 26 stun? Sure, sounds good...). Skills are always useful too.

The downsides are a loss of hit points (hurts some), and a loss of BAB (hurts more). But, if I'm not really a melee guy, the BAB lag shouldn't be too terrible, right?

 

[Jdvn1]

Hm. After reading your posts, I have to agree with you. The monk is not a damage machine. Unfortunate, especially with that ever-increasing unarmed strike damage...but seriously, without all the BAB and Power Attack points to back it up, it's just not that big a gun.

And hp. You shouldn't be meleeing if you can't take the melee hits.

So, let me ask this then. I've been contemplating a multiclass into Rogue. It's a favored class for the tiefling, and sneak dice can't hurt if I'm doing the flanking thing. With Ascetic Rogue from Complete Adventurer, I won't lose out on unarmed progression either, not to mention gaining a +2 DC on my stuns if I combine them with the sneak attack (DC 26 stun? Sure, sounds good...). Skills are always useful too.

The downsides are a loss of hit points (hurts some), and a loss of BAB (hurts more). But, if I'm not really a melee guy, the BAB lag shouldn't be too terrible, right?

Sunds like a pretty good idea -- have you considered going for Spring Attack? If you're not there to hit (or at least they can't make a full attack against you), then you don't have to worry as much about hp. And if the Fighter is doing the brunt of the damage, then all the better.

If you want to hit more, you'll need levels in Fighter and you'll have to take the xp hit for multiclassing. Also, you'd have more feats to play with. With Rogue, you only get SA and Uncanny Dodge for four levels, since you already have evasion. If you have Ascetic Rogue, do you need more than one level in Rogue? I'm not sure what the feat does, exactly.

 

[silentspace]

How come so many people go Dex-based monk? I think they should be strength based. Your Improved Disarm or Trip feat stays useful a little longer then. Anyway, back to your topic, you should be flanking and stunning. And since you have a high dex, consider taking twf, if your DM will allow it to be used with flurry.

 

[mzsylver]

I think your problem is you are Dex based and not Str based. If you can get Improved Grapple and get the wiz to Rapid Enlarge you (or some potions), grappling creatures so the rogue can auto sneak attack them is a great combo.

If your judge lets you redo your feats, Elusive Target is fabulous. Make yourself and target and watch the enemies kill and trip themselves.

Good luck! =)