Advice on 9th level Monk doing 6d6 damage per strike...

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

We really, really dislike people using "house rules" as a pejorative, even when they're using a smiley.

It wasn't used in a perjorative sense.

 

[NilesB]

Edit: reading the rest of this thread my post was redundant

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Not nearly. Read the rules you are discussing next time.

You are very, very late to this party.

Sure, the monk's unarmed strike can count as a natural weapon some of the time. The problem is that the argument that INA is part of that "some of the time" is not exactly ironclad.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I've certainly seen some questionable FAQ answers. Check this out:

Q: Can Spring Attack and Charge be used together as long as all movement is in a straight line, strafing the opponent or tumbling through the occupied square?

A: No. Charging requires that you move before your attack, not after it.

Now, that strikes me as an off-the-cuff answer backed up by a pretty stupid explanation.

Agreed - the FAQ, in this case, has the answer right, but for the wrong reasons. A better answer would be:

A: No, because Charge is a full-round action which includes movement and a single attack, and Spring Attack requires that you take the Attack action, which is a standard action. Thus, the two cannot be used together.

 

[RigaMortus2]

My interpretation:

Monks can't take INA because:
1) Monks have a natural attack for the purposes of spells and effects.

2) The term "effect" is not explictly defined in any WotC product, but it is repeatedly used for an external influence on creatures, objects, and other effects. There are no instances of it (tmk), especially in core, being used to refer to character capabilities and abililties such as ability scores, BAB, save, feats, skills, or other class abilities with the explicit exception of Ex, Sp, and Su abilities (usually in conjection with affecting something else as opposed to the creature with the ability). It is also used for spells, magical items, environmental conditions, equipment, etc. where the PC can be affected by external situations.

3) As such, the word is important, and has meaning, even if it is not explicitly defined. It is defined by usage. Do not skip over it when reading the line.

4) A feat is not a spell or an effect.

5) Thus, a monk does not qualify for INA.

My interpretation (as I understand it) pretty much includes all this, plus...

I don't think feats grant effects (unless specifically mentioned in their benefits section). They grant benefits. Benefits are not defined in the glossary, but they are on page 89 of the 3.5 PHB. Before you can get the benefit of the feat, you have to meet it's prerequisite. You have to have a natural attack, and a bab of +4. The Monk does not have natural attacks.

Anyway, that is how I read the Core RAW.

 

[Felon]

A: No, because Charge is a full-round action which includes movement and a single attack, and Spring Attack requires that you take the Attack action, which is a standard action. Thus, the two cannot be used together.

That's an even more bizarre exercise in semantics than the "official" interpretation. The full-round action of charging incorporates an attack action into it.

 

[KarinsDad]

The RULES as canon is suspect.

The rules are what we have to work with and what we typically discuss here.

The FAQ is the Sage's interpretation on the rules, which btw, is sometimes in conflict with interpretation by other WotC sources.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's an even more bizarre exercise in semantics than the "official" interpretation. The full-round action of charging incorporates an attack action into it.

No, it does not.

And, it is only bizarre if one does not follow the rules or does not completely understand the rules.

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.

The entire Charge full round action only allows for a move and an attack. Not a Move Action and an Attack Action. Both the move and the attack are integral parts of the Charge. They are not distinct actions.

Spring Attack requires that you use it with an Attack Action. That is what it explicity states. That's the rule. You cannot use an Attack Action if you have already used a Full Round Action to Charge.

Like it or not, those are the rules.


Consider the attack within a Charge to be similar to an Attack of Opportunity. You get to do the attack, but it is not an action. In the case of Charge, the Charge is the (Full Round) action, not the attack. The attack is part of the Charge.


Note: There is a Full Round Action that can be broken up into an Attack Action and a Move Action. If a creature attempts the first attack of a full round attack, it can then decide whether to continue the full round attack or to do a move action instead. This is an exception to the normal rule that the Full Round Action is the entire Action and it cannot be broken down into a Standard Action and a Move Action. Charge, however, has no such language.


Btw, I agree that the answer in the FAQ is pretty dumb. The Sage should know better than giving that explanation. However, it is the correct answer, just for the wrong reason. So, Patryn got it completely correct.

 

[green slime]

Well, for starters, I don't allow the Goliath. I personally think it is silly race.

Fanged Ring I hadn't heard of, and neither have my players. I probably don't own that issue.

Monk's belt and INA are both standard stuff.

If I were to allow a goliath monk, then I'd allow their racial feature to affect their unarmed damage. I doubt that I would then allow fanged ring to stack with INA.

 

[Felon]

No, it does not.

And, it is only bizarre if one does not follow the rules or does not completely understand the rules.

Like it or not, those are the rules.

However, it is the correct answer, just for the wrong reason. So, Patryn got it completely correct.

You are adopting the curt, peremptory tone of someone who has ultimate authority on the topic at hand. Bear in mind you're just a guy with his own interpretation (not unlike the guys who answer the FAQs). In this case, that interpretation is that the "attack action with a melee weapon" specified by the Spring Attack feat cannot be included with a charge, even if that action is just a plain old attack--something which is included as part of a charge. They just never should've put that word "action" in there, because that represents an impenetrable lockout?

So, extrapolating from this interpretation, a character cannot, for instance, draw a weapon as he's charging, even if he has a +1 or better BAB? Drawing a weapon requires a Move Action, which you say is something that doesn't occur during a charge.

Looking at the action chart, I notice that a sunder attempt is listed as a Standard Action as well. Of course, that's an attack, which can be part of a charge, but my Spring Attack might be used to sunder something, so that should mesh.