Advice on a cleric feat please.

[Olison]

I guess I do disagree.

What percentage of the time does "going first" or "high in the initiative order" really matter for a cleric in a combat?

How can very occasionally going higher in the initiative order than the cleric would have gone without blowing a feat on it be BETTER or more useful than moving towards persistent feat, or extend, or etc.

When you take "improved initiative" you are not just taking it, you are NOT taking another feat. I'd say extend then persistent blows away any advantage improved init. will ever give.

Wouldn't it really suck if someone Mord's Disjunction you in the first round and you loose initiative by 3......and what good did your extend/persist spell do??

 

[two]

I think that's part of the problem

It's easy to remember the rare combat where you would give your left arm to have a better initiative... (as you sit and stew in your juices)

It's much harder to remember the combat where you made a will save by 1 point (thanks to Iron Will) and thus did not get incapacitated immediately... (a non-event)

Or the combat where your persistent divine favor polished off the bad guy 1 round before he takes you head off... (a non-event)

Or the combat where your extended X spell saved your butt in some way. (a non-event)

NOT crumping/being hurt is not very memorable. It also happens a lot.

ALMOST crumping is very memorable. Also very rare.

I prefer to stick with the percentages.

How many combats does it REALLY MATTER if Karl the Cleric goes at 15 or 10 or 5? At the end of the day? Is it 1 in 10? Or 1 in 20? Or 1 in 2? Or 1 in 5?

And is this more important that other wonderful feats you can take?

 

[two]

Wouldn't it really suck if someone Mord's Disjunction you in the first round and you loose initiative by 3......and what good did your extend/persist spell do??

Err... if you are playing at those levels, which this cleric in question is not, it does suck bad. I'd suggest taking improved initiative at level 15 or 18, after extend/persistent, if you really really must and are obsessed with the issue.

Pretty silly argument for the mid-level Cleric in question.

 

[Morrow]

Extend/Persistant Spell IMO this feat chain is only for divine favor, with Persitant Spell only working on spells with a personal range I think you only get to use it on two 1st level spells, DF and comprehend languages.
Now that the buff spells have had the durations changed Extend spell is no longer such a good choice either.

Does anyone have a list handy of all the spells eligable for the Persistant Spell feat? How many spells is it really good for?


Andy

 

[Larcen]

Sorry, to correct you but IMHO. In high level magical combat the one who goes first win......

Er...aren't we saying the same thing??

 

[Larcen]

... I'd say extend then persistent blows away any advantage improved init. will ever give.

Maybe, but you are not stating the whole picture. Does extend and persistent beat improved initiative AND another feat? Remember that Persistent Divine Favor is costing you two feats (and a 5th level slot I might add). I would rather have imp init. and another feat...and the 5th level slot.

 

[Larcen]

It's easy to remember the rare combat where you would give your left arm to have a better initiative... (as you sit and stew in your juices)

It's much harder to remember the combat where you made a will save by 1 point (thanks to Iron Will) and thus did not get incapacitated immediately... (a non-event)

Or the combat where your persistent divine favor polished off the bad guy 1 round before he takes you head off... (a non-event)

Or the combat where your extended X spell saved your butt in some way. (a non-event)

NOT crumping/being hurt is not very memorable. It also happens a lot.

ALMOST crumping is very memorable. Also very rare.

I prefer to stick with the percentages.

How many combats does it REALLY MATTER if Karl the Cleric goes at 15 or 10 or 5? At the end of the day? Is it 1 in 10? Or 1 in 20? Or 1 in 2? Or 1 in 5?

And is this more important that other wonderful feats you can take?

Ha. I tend to see all this in a much different way.

My cleric is not in melee in every single battle so Divine Favor may not always apply.

But how many battles will I be able to apply the improved initiative bonus?

Every one of them.

And, strangely enough, the more individual enemies there are the better the chance improved initiative helps! (Unless of course your DM makes one roll for all of them. Ours doesn't.)

 

[two]

Ha. I tend to see all this in a much different way.

My cleric is not in melee in every single battle so Divine Favor may not always apply.

But how many battles will I be able to apply the improved initiative bonus?

Every one of them.

By this logic, you might as well take Dodge.

How many TIMES in a battle will you use Improved Init? Exactly Once.

How many TIMES in a battle will you use Dodge. Varies, but 99% of the time greater than once. Remember, it applies vs. touch attacks and etc.

Also, of course, you are ignoring the issue of "does it matter?" Yeah, every battle you can apply Improved Init. once. For sure. How often does this matter? This is precisely why the Dodge feat is not often taken. It is used VERY often (as feats go) (every time your AC is attacked by a chosen bad guy). However, does it matter? Well, 1 attack in 20 (roughly) it matters (bumping up you AC one point making a hit miss). For some people it's enough. For most, it's not.

For the cleric in question, I'd put Improved Init into this category. Used occasionally (once every combat), but not often truly useful.

Of course, this is just my opinion. But just for fun, keep a record of your next 5 battles, if you would; how the initiative thing goes, and if in your opinion a higher or lower initiative mattered a lot regarding the outcome.

I'm kinda curious too. Maybe my experience is very atypical.

 

[Larcen]

Respectfully...

... How many TIMES in a battle will you use Improved Init? Exactly Once.

Depends on whether your group rolls init every round or not. But yes, usually once. (Our group's house rule is to reroll every time you take damage or lose a save.)

How many TIMES in a battle will you use Dodge. Varies, but 99% of the time greater than once. Remember, it applies vs. touch attacks and etc. ...

Again, my cleric is not in melee in every battle. And although Dodge might still help in ranged attacks, a +1 to AC cannot compare to the +4 to init, IMHO.

Your other points do make sense though and I'll try and keep track to see how it goes.

 

[Nail]

It isn't always good to rush forward and attack when you win initiative, though, as you point out.

Waaaaaaaay OT, but I can't help it:

Charging into combat is almost always bad. Very bad. Even if you lost initiative. The difference between a full attack (especially with monster baddies) vs. Standard Action attack is large.

Make your enemies come to you. (Have a missile weapon.)