Advice wanted: 3.5 weapon sizing

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, just looking at my own personal collection of sharp pointy things, I find evidence of reason for the 3.5 weapon size rules, dislike them though I did at the time they were introduced.

Among the blades I own are an actual dagger and a miniature scale model of a sword that are both the same length.

The dagger has a handle that fits my hand, and a nice, broad (if short) blade that is more than 1.5" across at the hilt. Its proportions are about 50% blade and grip. This is clearly a human sized dagger.

The scale model sword has a blade that is about as broad as 2 pencils at its widest, and its "grip" only fits a few of my fingers. Its blade is much longer than its grip, and it also doesn't weigh as much as the dagger. This would be a Tiny longsword or bastard-sword, in game terms.

 

[Henry]

No, but odds are it would make a great quaterstaff or halberd equivalent.

However, you could say the same about a Zweihander and a Gladius, or a pick and a scythe. it's not just size, but optimum use. Maybe it's a difference in the concept of proficiency. I see proficiency in a weapon a lot narrower than you or Dungeonmaster. Just because you can use a weapon effectively doesn't mean you have NO trouble with it.

Practice with all manner of swords, but then get a sword with a grip built for a 3 year old child and tell me you can use it with the EXACT same level of proficiency, and I'd have to see it to believe it. A small penalty for not being optimally constructed for you is perfectly plausible to me, and not having to worry about whether a halfling can wield a bastard sword as a longsword or a greatsword, or whether he needs a feat to weild it at all is fine with me.

As mentioned earlier, to each their own.

Can I get an Amen?

 

[the Jester]

So tell me your experiences with the 3.5 weapon sizing. Did you initially hate it but learn to love it?

Initially I thought this particular change was lame, but after using it for a while I have to whole-heartedly endorse it.

Thing of it this way: a dagger designed for an ogre isn't going to be the same as a longsword designed for a gnome. The balance is going to be different, the hilt is going to be thicker on the ogre's knife, etc. It makes sense.

 

[Storyteller01]

Practice with all manner of swords, but then get a sword with a grip built for a 3 year old child and tell me you can use it with the EXACT same level of proficiency, and I'd have to see it to believe it. A small penalty for not being optimally constructed for you is perfectly plausible to me, and not having to worry about whether a halfling can wield a bastard sword as a longsword or a greatsword, or whether he needs a feat to weild it at all is fine with me.

Actually...

Samurai had marking daggers about the size you mentioned (whole thing was about 4" x [something in the single mm range] x 1/4"). Jab it in an opponent after you killed them to tell everyone who killed him. Makes a great utility knife as well, and a combat weapon is a DESPERATE situation. Some sia's (sheaths for the katana, butchered the spelling) modified to accomadate them without adding extra wood in the construction. Most folks here have seen how slim a katana's sheath is...

I would apply a penalty for using it, but not for nonproficiency or 'comfort' issues. The weapons size and mass means it does next to nothing. Unless your incredibly accurate, you might as well be fighting unarmed...

... which is why I don't mind small critters using human equivalent weapons (admittedly, I have little experience on the other end of the spectrum). Anything built for them designed to emulate the same techniques will be about as effective as a hat pin.

That, and I have three year olds in the house that I have to hide my smaller knives from. They have no problem gripping a 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch handle.



Oh yeah.... AMEN BROTHA!!!!!!!

 

[beepeearr]

I never liked the 3.5 rules, I liked how sizes worked with various rules like disarming and such. And with an actual size instead of handedness and what creature the weapon was meant for, you knew who could use what with out having to figure it out.

There were problems with 3.0, but they were problems that would have been better solved changing how classes grant weapon proficincies. For instance in my campaign, a rogues has profiency in all one-handed or smaller simple weapons and light or smaller martial weapons.

Plus I always allowed smaller and larger versions of weapons in my campaign, so they didn't change much in our games. I don't use the -2 penalty for weapons created for other sizes.
But, heck I also liked the cover and concealment rules better from 3.0.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Devil's Advocate: Can you pick up a coat-rack and use it with exactly the same level of precision you would a katana?

If you have the same mental image of a coat-rack as I do - a long thick pole with numerous projections at the end of it - then I'de have to say hell no.
Coat racks on the other hand are not designed for killing things. They're designed for hanging coats.
There are weapons, not just random objects, that I have admittedly no ability with - at all. Anything involving a chain, like a flail I cannot weild with any degree of proficiency.
We probably do see proficiency with a weapon as different beasts.

For our games, the 3.5 weapon sizes were not better or worse -- merely different. It solved a couple of problems that we had previously solved by DM adjudication, same as Francisca had.

DM adjucation is always the best solution. I will note that the only time I have ever seen someone try and abuse the system was a guy in an RPGA game, and this was 3.5. He used a halfling spiked chain and a sheild. The DM let him.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That, and I have three year olds in the house that I have to hide my smaller knives from. They have no problem gripping a 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch handle.

I bet their grip on that is not the same as yours would be, or as good as gripping something that was built to their scale.

(Imaging Herve Villechese trying to fight with a dagger custom built for Shaquille O'Neal.)

I've gotten my hands on numerous musical instruments over the years, mostly guitars. A guitar built for a kid has a different scale, scale size, body depth, etc. One custom-made oversized guitar I handled was so big, I couldn't properly form chords on it.

 

[Storyteller01]

He used a halfling spiked chain and a sheild.

Now this doesn't bother me, beyond the fact that it had to be a 'halfling' spiked chain, or that the weapon that provides a 5 foot reach for Small critters would do the same for a medium critter.

I once watched a martial arts demo where a student dual wielded chain whips (basically, one handed spiked chain). Now the demostration was designed for flash over function, so both whips were constantly moving without the impediment of bad guys. Still it was impressive.

Now, thinking on it, a Small spiked chain giving reach to both small and medium critters makes sense; their use is dependant on technique and timing. The reach extends from the users front hand (I actually see the spiked chain being the weapon for choice for a halfling. How would giving halfling familiarty with this weapon effect the game?). HOWEVER, my beef is more with the polearms. I just can't see a 3' critter wielding a 10' longspear.

 

[Storyteller01]

I bet their grip on that is not the same as yours would be, or as good as gripping something that was built to their scale.

Actually, it was a good fit, especially since the grips were solid metal. They weren't customized for anyone. Thumbs and fingers fit in the right place with room for finesse. If anything, they had a good baseball grip going.

NO, I didn't give them the weapons. I forgot how welll they can climb...

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I love the 3.5 weapon size rules and consider them almost flatly superior.

One of the reasons I consider them an absolutely vital addition to the game is that they finally allow for 1-handed reach weapons. Call the 'halfling longspear' trick an exploit, but "stick and board" as opposed to "sword and board" was and should be in-game a valid fighting style - one of the best, in fact.

I also prefer the more elegant and obvious damage scaling for larger creatures.