D&D 4E AICN Massawyrm's 4E Review - Part 3

[Mr. Wilson]

I'm kinda excited to see basically everyone who has played 4E is just gushing about it mechanically.

I can change flavor as long as the mechanics work.

 

[Incenjucar]

This really isn't something to get upset about.

This is just graph paper, pencil, and eraser.

Which is what prior editions would be if you had spellcasters who used AOEs to full effectiveness.

4E just has nearly everyone using spellcaster-level dynamism, so precision tends to be more important.

In prior editions, many classes were basically just standing there draining health and dropping the occasional status effect like disease-ridden leeches that would occasionally hop to another spot to go back to doing the same thing. While the spellcasters turned the ground into mud or raised walls of fire or summoned gusts of wind.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

just to sum it up: what is wrong with the good old:

DM, can i move to get into a good position to strike the orc near the fighter after marking it as my quarry? -yes, you can if you move left?

Or: I move to those orcs and mark them with my cleaving attack.

Or: I attack them and push them back a step, away from the cleric.

Maybe there are times you need some markers, but I really don´t want to play a board game in every encounter... in 3.x thats mainly a matter of believe in the masters fairness. In 4e it also may be that way.

 

[Hussar]

Why are so many people allergic to using a battle map? Jeez, I like them. What else are those pretty maps good for? Blow them up and use them on your table. Minis are not expensive - poker chips and a printer gets the job done. Oh, and a glue stick.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Yeah I think part of his enthusiasm has to do with the fact that he probably plays the mini's game. Unlike Rodrigo's review of 4E game play this just seems far from fair and impartial. His criticism really isnt much of a criticism at all it just seems like he's just gushing all over the game. I'm glad he enjoys it, but more reviews along the line of Rodrigo's would work for me better.

Odd that purely negative reviews are "fair and impartial," while positive reviews are "unfair and partial."

 

[Cam Banks]

So, first they toss out the brass and bronze dragons - my favorites - and replace them with two new metallic dragons, and now they're just leaving all metallics out of the game altogether?

Have they not had any adventures where good-aligned dragons serve a critical and instrumental purpose?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Geron Raveneye]

but i really don´t want to see how square is translated into german...

My best guess? "Kästchen"

Now doesn't that scream roleplaying game to you?

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Yeah I think part of his enthusiasm has to do with the fact that he probably plays the mini's game. Unlike Rodrigo's review of 4E game play this just seems far from fair and impartial. His criticism really isnt much of a criticism at all it just seems like he's just gushing all over the game. I'm glad he enjoys it, but more reviews along the line of Rodrigo's would work for me better.

I'm not surprised to see this fallacy repeated all over these boards. Simply because someone reports problems in something does not mean that their assessment is fair and balanced. Similarly, just because someone writes a positive (or negative) assessment of something does not mean that their assessment is unfairly biased.

 

[Primal]

It hasn't for us, at least.

And for the record, I hated using minis in 3E. I was always one of the few voices arguing against them, in my group.

In 4E? I have no objection to using them. The suite of movement-based options and abilities has turned me around. I'm still not a collector--I'm perfectly happy using multi-colored dice or something in place of "official" minis--but I no longer mind, and in fact look forward to, pulling out the grid.

Ari, how did you keep track of Combat Advantages, Conditions (Dazed, 'Bloodied', etc.) and 'Marks' on each mini? This is one of my concerns in 4E that the tactical ("board game"-like) aspects and keeping track of them gets a bit too complicated to my taste.

Also, I recall you saying (on another thread) that 4E lets you improvise in combat more, although I don't how your "slide-under-the-table" stunt could not be done in 3E via a STR check vs. Balance?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Ari, how did you keep track of Combat Advantages, Conditions (Dazed, 'Bloodied', etc.) and 'Marks' on each mini? This is one of my concerns in 4E that the tactical ("board game"-like) aspects and keeping track of them gets a bit too complicated to my taste.

Hasn't been a problem for us. If there was a condition or two on a PC, the player jotted down a note on his sheet.

For conditions on a monster, the DM just jotted down notes on his initiative cards.

The only time it became a problem was when the ranger forgot to keep track of which skeleton he'd declared his quarry, and that would easily be fixed by putting a die or a marker next to the mini.

Honestly, I think the fears of people losing track of who's under what conditions are overstated. It's not hard.

Also, I recall you saying (on another thread) that 4E lets you improvise in combat more, although I don't how your "slide-under-the-table" stunt could not be done in 3E via a STR check vs. Balance?

Sure, it could be done in 3E. But in 3E, I can think of at least three or four ways to go about it by the rules. My experience in 4E is that such things tend to be simpler and easier to adjudicate, with less room for DM/player disagreement over the rules.

More importantly, while I used that as an example because it's the first one we tried, the fact is that--again, IME--4E simply lends itself more to such things. There are actions I wouldn't even try in 3E, because I didn't feel like dealing with the rules discussions, or because they weren't worth trying without the proper feat. (In the table example, above, even though I was 10 feet away from the enemy and under the table, I know of some truly nitpicky DMs who would've tried to give them an AoO because I was making a "trip attack.") In 4E, the basic combat system encompasses pretty much all of them with its "Attack vs. a chosen defense" mechanic.