D&D 4E AICN Massawyrm's 4E Review - Part 3

[Spatula]

It requires the DM to handwave positioning, but the same was true in 2E--how many orcs can you catch in that fireball? How far is the fireball channeled by the corridor walls?

Not to mention lining up Lightning Bolt rebounds.

 

[Spatula]

As a last thought--are people seriously contending that a game which measures distance in squares doesn't suffer in playability without a grid? Come on folks. We weren't born yesterday.

What does the measurement matter? If it was in feet or meters it wouldn't require a grid, but since it's in 5-foot increments it does?

To answer all your questions about how this power or that would work without tracking locations - the DM decides. That how handwaving works.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not going to step into the debate over whether 4E will require minis, but 3.X certainly does not. I have played quite a few 3.X games with no grid or minis and it went fine. It requires the DM to handwave positioning, but the same was true in 2E--how many orcs can you catch in that fireball? How far is the fireball channeled by the corridor walls? These questions could not possibly be answered without either a) handwaving or b) a map and minis, or mini-equivalents.

Um, actually they could be answered without anything beyond a sketched map and some math (which I don't consider "hand-waving").

In 3E, at least one person needs to be dedicated to keeping track of things in their head if you're not going to use minis, but want to use AoOs and the like.

In 4E, with all the constant tiny little moves, you're not going to be playing anything closely resembling RAW without minis.

It's an evolutionary change, rather than a revolutionary one, I agree, though, if that's what you're saying. It's not like minis have never had any place before and are suddenly being imposed. It's more like they were unecessary in 2E, very useful in 3E, and seem actually necessary in 4E. No sudden imposition, just a shifting (npi!) of position.

 

[Bandreus]

I'm not saying in anyway you have to use grid/minis to play the game, you can sure play the old pen & paper way, but doing so will make it an hella much harder. I have a lot of reasons to say so

D&D 1e, AD&D were just perfect without a grid. in 3.x is still fine, but grids are really usefull for spellcasters, and it also helps a lot aut with AoO (given you used them in your game)

4E is definitelly going the grid way. First of all is crystal clear the combat system resembles a board game (they actually lists movement speed in squares, rather than feets, wich should stink quite a bit)

* the encounters will be much crawded (X players vs X monsters, rather than X players vs a few monsters), so say 4 players/4 mobs every other encounter. or if you're going with the minion creatures (wich will happen quite often) it gets even worst, 4 players/8 minions/2 mobs or 4 players/16 minions.
* a lot of powers "pushing the enemy x squares around"
generally more dynamic combat (rather than sticking to your chsen foe and attacking one another until he dies)
* additional movement actions triggered by other powers
* traps around the encounter location (rarely seen in previous editions)
* different terrain types
* powers wich actually modify the terrain type (not seen at the previews, but WotC actually talks a lot about that)
* Keeping track of various things for all the players and mobs (bloodied status, marks, ongoing effects, death tokens)

god, now I know why they leaved summon spells from the spell lists.
Maybe they streamlined the rules a lot, but handling the encounters is going to be a serius thing

So, can you go without a grid (graph paper can just be fine) and tokens/minis? sure you can, but have luck with it ~_~ also having to drawing/erasing everything round by round is going to take quite a bit

 

[Klaus]

It hasn't for us, at least.

And for the record, I hated using minis in 3E. I was always one of the few voices arguing against them, in my group.

In 4E? I have no objection to using them. The suite of movement-based options and abilities has turned me around. I'm still not a collector--I'm perfectly happy using multi-colored dice or something in place of "official" minis--but I no longer mind, and in fact look forward to, pulling out the grid.

>cough, cough<

Fiery Dragon counters

>cough, cough<

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I am still hoping DDI will come out with a Token Gallery, and a program where you can scroll there the Tokens for every monster released so far in 4E both in MM's and articles. From this list you could then place them on a format... Say a grid, this grid can be printed out then with the Tokens on it, so they are at the proper size for a matt.

If you print it out on card-stock and cut them out, perfectly good minis right there. Also nice thing with this program, need 20 orcs? Just put 20 orcs on the grid and print. So it is not just one or two like the old Dragon monster tokens.

 

[Andor]

I've kind of wondered about the grid obsession in 3.x. I've long thought that the 3.x rules would work just fine if you tosssed the grid away and ran it sandtable style with a cloth ruler.

I wonder if that would still work in 4e?

 

[Wormwood]

In 4E? I have no objection to using them. The suite of movement-based options and abilities has turned me around. I'm still not a collector--I'm perfectly happy using multi-colored dice or something in place of "official" minis--but I no longer mind, and in fact look forward to, pulling out the grid.

I too hate 3e's reliance on the grid.

I'm really, really hoping that your experience with 4e is not atypical.

 

[Grimstaff]

>cough, cough<

Fiery Dragon counters

>cough, cough<

Those have come in handy for me since the early days of 3.0, great stuff!

Nice art, too...

 

[hbarsquared]

So, should I believe the non-playtester who expresses straaaange opinions ("no more so than any other iteration of D&D" - considering you didn't need them at all in 2E, but clearly did in 3.XE...), or the person who has been playing it for months, well, let me think...

All I'm saying is that in "every iteration of D&D" you have needed to know who was standing next to you, how far away the monster is, how big the room is, etc. The fact that 4E measures distances in squares as opposed to feet is irrelevant.

Since 4E steps up the combat to include more movement, more abilities, and more terrain features, it will naturally be helpful to have additional game aids. If you don't want to have all these extra options in a 4E combat, or you can keep track of the individual movements of tons of creatures in your head, then aids will not be needed.

I don't think of it as "4E is becoming a miniatures game" so much as "4E has more mobile combats, so miniatures will make play faster/easier/more fun."