Aid Another Quiz

[Fauchard1520]

I've found no part of the rules more prone to table variance than the Aid Another rules. I originally posted this little questionnaire over on this comic, but I'm curious to see how my fellow EN Worlders respond. To that end:

Read through the following scenarios. Take a minute to jot down whether you think help would actually be helpful in each case, then post your results down below. My hypothesis is that we’ll see a lot of variation between commentators. Sound fair? Alright then, onward to the experiment!

1. Can you help Thief to pick a lock?
2. Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult?
3. Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament?
4. Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it falls on his head?
5. Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon?
6. Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison?
7. Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell?
8. Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic?

 

[Deset Gled]

I'm a 3.5 player, and in that edition there are two ways to Aid Another. The first in on skill checks, where the rules state " If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.)".

The second is a combat action that states "If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn."

Following these, it's pretty easy to go through your list:

Can you help Thief to pick a lock? - Yes, assuming you also make your lock pick check.
Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult? - Yes, assuming you also make your knowledge check.
Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament? - Yes, using the "Complex Skills" section to adjudicate the game.
Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it falls on his head? - Yes, assuming you make the check and have time before it hits to warn him. I would typically make this the difference between a surprise round and normal initiative.
Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon? - Yes, assuming he makes a check. This would most likely be explained as making other distractions that obscure the fighters movement.
Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison? - No, that's explicitly a Heal check (the Heal check could be aided, though).
Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell? - Hold spell, no. Sleep spell, yes.
Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic? - Depends on how the DM was running it. If it was a reflex save, no. If it was an attack against AC, yes. Spot against the pendulum, yes. Tumble? That's a little bit grayer, but probably yes.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

[

I'm a 3.5 player, and in that edition there are two ways to Aid Another. The first in on skill checks, where the rules state " If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.)".

The second is a combat action that states "If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn."

Following these, it's pretty easy to go through your list:

Just for reference:

Aid Another
You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

See also: Aid Another in Combat

Emphasis mine. ^

Aid Another
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

Can you help Thief to pick a lock? - Yes, assuming you also make your lock pick check.

Unless the lock was of some kind of construction that actually permitted more than one character to work on it, no. Also, by definition of the action, a character who couldn't pick a lock THEMSELVES cannot assist someone who CAN at doing so. And then you only need to roll 10 or better on the check to grant a +2 bonus to the lock picker. You don't need to roll against the difficulty of the lock itself.

Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult? - Yes, assuming you also make your knowledge check.

Agreed, noting that knowledge is a trained-only skill. If you don't have skill points in the appropriate field of knowledge, you're not helping.

Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament? - Yes, using the "Complex Skills" section to adjudicate the game.

Noting that this, too, would only be allowed if the character were permitted to communicate with the cleric, "I'm certain he's bluffing." Otherwise, the character would certainly have to be considered cheating - which has other consequences if detected, and detecting it would be certain if the players don't clarify that they are taking steps to not be detected at their cheating.

Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it falls on his head? - Yes, assuming you make the check and have time before it hits to warn him. I would typically make this the difference between a surprise round and normal initiative.

Again, if it's a spot check that the character is trying to help with, then they only need to roll 10+ on their own spot check in order to grant a +2 to the fighters own spot check - but that's unlikely since the "assisting" character is not going to be trying to help the fighter avoid danger (unless this has strangely been stated as being the case), but will be occupied looking for danger to HIMSELF.

If attempting to aid the fighter's attack roll or AC then the assisting PC need only roll to hit AC 10 to grant the fighter a +2 to hit (assuming the assisting PC can also attack the piercer) and in the case of boosting the fighters AC, the attack from the piercer then has to come before the assisting characters next turn (the AC assistance doesn't help if the piercer doesn't then actually attack within a timespan of 1r.).

Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon? - Yes, assuming he makes a check. This would most likely be explained as making other distractions that obscure the fighters movement.

It'd almost certainly be smarter for the fighter to try to assist the thief, but otherwise, yeah, that works.

Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison? - No, that's explicitly a Heal check (the Heal check could be aided, though).

Agreed that it doesn't work, but not because it would require a heal check, but because a saving throw is simply not one of the ways in which Aid Another is stated to be beneficial. A save is not a skill check but a different kind of check entirely, and in combat Aid Another helps with an attack roll or to boost AC, but not saves.

Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell? - Hold spell, no. Sleep spell, yes.

Agreed.

Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic? - Depends on how the DM was running it. If it was a reflex save, no. If it was an attack against AC, yes. Spot against the pendulum, yes. Tumble? That's a little bit grayer, but probably yes.

If what the character is attempting to aid is a skill check, yes. If it's an ally's attack roll, yes. If it's an ally's AC against an attack roll, yes. Against anything else, no. And again, if circumstances are deemed to be such that the Aid can't help, then it can't help. For example, a pendulum whose game mechanics work by making an attack roll against the character might be deemed something that others cannot aid the victim's AC because they might not be able to affect the pendulum in any way that would help. Simply waving pompoms and cheering, "Go team! Go!" will NOT help improve anyone's AC. Maybe their MORALE depending on the attractiveness of the cheerleader...

 

[Deset Gled]

[

Just for reference:

Emphasis mine. ^

*lots more*

I think we're actually in agreement with just about everything here. Most of the comments where you disagree are more about how to adjudicate 3.xE skills in general as they apply to the quiz, and I have a feeling that these cases are really more about how we are differently interpreting one sentence summaries of complex scenes. And, yes, I am aware that the Aider only needs to role 10, must be trained, etc. I will continue to refer to this roll as a "skill check" because that's the same language the SRD uses.

The one case where I think we actually disagree about Aid Another is the lock pick one. Specifically, this:

Unless the lock was of some kind of construction that actually permitted more than one character to work on it, no.

Simply put, I don't think there is any requirement to actually be picking the lock to use the Aid Another option in this case. The rules only state that the Aider must make "the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort", not that they are actually completing the check on their own.

Conceptually, the "Open Lock" skill is an abstraction that covers much more than just moving your hands swiftly with the lock. It also involves knowledge of how different locks work, experience with a variety of custom tools and materials, the ability to blindly analyze and visualize three dimensional moving parts, and many other minor things you just don't consciously think about all the time. There's little doubt in my mind that a skilled locksmith could help another by focusing, watching, and talking. I imagine comments like "I heard a scrape. If that's a double encabulator remember to twist counterclockwise instead of clockwise", or "Looks like the cam is make of barsonite, but your harling wrench is made of steel; that's going to make it hard to feel the click when it's this warm", or just questions like "Is your pinskey hook behind the second ridge, or in front of the third kipple?".

The Aider could also be doing things like holding/cleaning/prepping the pickers tools, holding the lock steady in an awkward position, adding a second set of hands for heavy torque, or wiping sweat off the pickers brow. Those kind of small things, along with the type of comments and analysis above, are certainly enough to justify a +2 bonus, IMO. And none of them require getting your own set of tools into the lock.

My opinion on this is possibly skewed by the years of experience that I have doing over-the-phone technical support. I know for a fact that you don't have to touch complex apparatus to help someone operate it. YMMV with how applicable this is to locks. Also, note that

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Simply put, I don't think there is any requirement to actually be picking the lock to use the Aid Another option in this case. The rules only state that the Aider must make "the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort", not that they are actually completing the check on their own.

Conceptually, the "Open Lock" skill is an abstraction that covers much more than just moving your hands swiftly with the lock.

And that's fine where the "lock" is similarly abstract. But if it's defined as a small keyhole on a door or a simple chest, I say there is simply nothing substantive and USEFUL that a second character can contribute to the job. As I said, I don't consider that waving pompoms and chanting, "Go team! Go!" is really helping in any way, and the book really says as much. For the same reason you can't Aid Another in combat unless you're in a position to actually attack the applicable opponent (if the person you're trying to aid is the only one able to attack the opponent you can't really help); you similarly can't help pick the lock unless the lock is of a type that actually CAN have two people working to open it at the same time - even if one of them IS only helping the other and not themselves attempting to open it.