D&D General Al-Qadim, Campaign Guide: Zakhara, and Cultural Sensitivity

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
You are ignoring the part where you directly denigrated other people's preference by referring to it as disingenuous.

Nope. None of that is true beyond your own game and preferences for it.

And if you view slavery and oppression as so vital to medieval Islamic states that removing them makes it no longer really those places, well, I'm not sure how to politely respond to that idea, other than to say that it is incredibly reductive and ignores centuries of culture, advancement, and history, that are not at all defined by those elements.
Are you saying I'm not allowed to say that I feel a particular type of setting is disingenuous? It's just my opinion, and I've included a number of exceptions, such as making explicit mention of the setting changes and, of course, reading your table and not including material uncomfortable to your players. That's all fine.
 

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Dukey

Villager
You are ignoring the part where you directly denigrated other people's preference by referring to it as disingenuous.

Nope. None of that is true beyond your own game and preferences for it.

And if you view slavery and oppression as so vital to medieval Islamic states that removing them makes it no longer really those places, well, I'm not sure how to politely respond to that idea, other than to say that it is incredibly reductive and ignores centuries of culture, advancement, and history, that are not at all defined by those elements.
If you dont like a setting, play another. No one is forcing anyone to play or like Al-Qadim, or another setting. My point is if you want a different middle eastern setting, and change it a lot, dont call it Al-Qadim because it really isnt anymore.
"And if you view slavery..." I never said anything about this, and it is also not relevant at all to this issue.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Not having state sponsored slavery or not featuring rape and child abuse doesn't make a setting into a "theme park".
Fair enough. The DM is a player too. I don't feature rape or child abuse in my games either, because I and my players find them extremely distasteful. The slavery thing is what I'm focusing on. State sponsored slavery has been a part of many cultures around the world for most of recorded history. Just having it not exist (outside of good in-universe reasons like @EzekielRaiden provided) in made-up cultures based on RL cultures where it did breaks immersion for me. Wanting that in the game doesn't make slavery less evil.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
If you dont like a setting, play another.
Don't try to tell others what to do. It accomplishes nothing.
No one is forcing anyone to play or like Al-Qadim, or another setting. My point is if you want a different middle eastern setting, and change it a lot, dont call it Al-Qadim because it really isnt anymore.
You aren't the arbiter of what changes are enough to make it "not the same setting."
"And if you view slavery..." I never said anything about this, and it is also not relevant at all to this issue.
If I am talking about slavery in fictional worlds based on real worlds, and you replay "if you change the setting a lot it isn't that setting anymore", then yes, it's quite relevant.
 

Reynard

Legend
I do think you can get away with theme park settings, as long as you're very clear (preferably in a sidebar) that that's what you're doing. Plenty of products in the 90s did this.
At least in my experience, "theme park" is a description of the style of game, not the depth or accuracy of it historical lore. A theme park is an open world full of railroads (rollercoasters).
 

G

Guest 7034872

Guest
It's been a long, long time since I've read Al-Qadim. Were honor killings a thing there?
In the original 1990s Al-Qadim they were, and I consider that one of their two biggest missteps; in this new Zakhara book, I am glad to report, the whole thing has been removed, as have all references to Islam (which never fit into an almost-dizzyingly polytheistic game world anyway). These are two big improvements Zakhara has made.
 
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Dukey

Villager
Don't try to tell others what to do. It accomplishes nothing.

You aren't the arbiter of what changes are enough to make it "not the same setting."

If I am talking about slavery in fictional worlds based on real worlds, and you replay "if you change the setting a lot it isn't that setting anymore", then yes, it's quite relevant.
I didn't, i stated that people have a choice to play and like what they want.
And yes, I am very much the arbiter of my own opinion.
Except you replied to me and I was talking about Al-Qadim, included in the title of this thread...
 

Ixal

Hero
Fair enough. The DM is a player too. I don't feature rape or child abuse in my games either, because I and my players find them extremely distasteful. The slavery thing is what I'm focusing on. State sponsored slavery has been a part of many cultures around the world for most of recorded history. Just having it not exist (outside of good in-universe reasons like @EzekielRaiden provided) in made-up cultures based on RL cultures where it did breaks immersion for me. Wanting that in the game doesn't make slavery less evil.
Thats a problem with most "faithful adaptation" of cultures. People only adapt the nice things, leaving all the bad stuff like slavery out. Which makes the result not really faithful.
You can't simply cut out one part of a culture and expect the rest of it to stay the same.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
State sponsored slavery has been a part of many cultures around the world for most of recorded history.
The only way this would really matter to any question of honesty, which you have challenged by calling certain types of settings disingenuous, would be if state sponsored were a part of every culture, throughout history, always, and even then only when discussing direct analogues of a real culture, and even then it wouldn't make not featuring that in the fictional world at all, in any way, less honest or genuine. It's a fictional world, no one calls grimdark worlds disingenuous, but make a world that is a bit more aspirational/optimistic, and hooooboy it's "theme parks" and "disingenuous".

Slavery is not central or necessary to Islam, to Southwest Asia and Northern Africa, nor to stories about heroes in a mythical desert realm with a strongly dominant mainstream religion that runs across species and cultures, creating a shared language and common idioms and practices even in otherwise very very different groups.

Not including it is no more disingenuous than not doing a deep dive on medieval travel and making the PCs abide by the norms of medieval travel while adventuring, or allowing female characters to be knights without ostracization.
 

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