D&D General Al-Qadim, Campaign Guide: Zakhara, and Cultural Sensitivity

[LuisCarlos17f]

Reverse Harem - Fanlore

fanlore.org

Polyandry - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Somebody could say fantasy fiction inspired in 1001 nights and near east may be too stereotyped, but if we start to watch spots to promote tourism in those countries, then that exotic touch is one of the main keys to attrack vistors. Of course when we are creating our own fantasy kingdom, then we use our own sytle, for example in Disney's Aladin when the main couple married, Jasmine wears the classic white dress. Nobody is going to wonder how is a Muslim wedding. "Orientalism" hasn't to be alway any thing wrong.

If there are raids in Zakara to catch slaves, I guess we can blame the khaasta, an extraplanar reptilian race. (If my words may offended any reptilian, please accept my most hipocrite apologies).

Other potential controversy is about the national invasions. Using the RPG for allegories of colonialism or international conflicts may be "getting into a chemise of thirty feet" ( = meddling in controversial issues, a chemise in a castle is the wall between two towers, and challening zone for attackers in a siege). If somebody complains about being a victim of historical injustices then other can answer about the time when those were the attackers against others.

The History may be very complicated some times. In the book "the crusades throught Arabian eyes" by Amin Alouf this told once there was a Christian-Muslim alliance against a second Christian-Muslim alliance. (The fitna or civil war among Muslims weren't rare in those time, and the relation between a first and a second wave of crusaders weren't too good). In the action-live movie of "Assasin's Creed" the flashback is about the conquest of Granada, the last remain of al-Andalus, by the Catholic kings. They aren't going to tell the Muslim king, Muley Hacen, was the guilty who started the war, and once Boadbil the little, the last Granadian king, was catched by the Christians, and after paying a rescue and some concessions he was returned to Granada, because the Catholic kings knew like this the civil war between Boadbil the little and his father Muley Hacen would continue. Boadbil wasn't happy because Isabel de Solis/Zoraya the new favorite of his father was going to be the mother of the heir. (If this sounds as a soap opera you can't guess what happened in the last years of al-Andalus kingdom and Omeya dinasty).

If you use a character for comedy tone, based in a historical character, al-Hakim, you can offend the Druzes who really believe he was a saint man. Technically al-Hakim was the responsible of the crusaders because he destroyed the temple of the holy sepulchre, the tomb of Christ.

The famous pirate Barbarrosa was a true historical character, but he wasn't an English corsair, but Otoman (with Greek blood), and they were slave traffickers.

There was an episode of "Hercules: the legendary journeys" about the slavery, with Lucy Liu.

The March to Freedom

Hercules saves a woman from slavery and then must help to free her fiancee from the slavers. As the story opens group of people are walking along a beach, among them are Cyrus and Oi-lan. Although Cyrus is suspicious of their leader, Belus, Oi-lan and the others assure him they are being led to...

hercules-xena.fandom.com

Slaves

hercules-xena.fandom.com

 

[Ixal]

It's not a question of who "owns. what" It's a question of accuracy. Middle Eastern harems are not filled with nubile women dressed in gauze, and that is an image created by western writers who wanted to sexy up a non-western idea and then continued by Hollywood and similar places, who also wanted to show something sexy and different. So having a game show a western image of a harem is, in fact, not a good idea.

Why is it so important that official books have harems?

Would you please stop shifting goalposts for a moment and not constantly jump around from who owns culture and thus can give permission to use aspects of it like it is apparently required to be respectful to how harems look like and adding strawmens about me wanting "hollywood nubile woman harems" first in board games and now books despite me specifically saying that this is not the case?

 

[Blue Orange]

I literally don't know if the Japanese (or Asians and people from other countries of Asian decent) would view L5R as a misappropriation, but I would guess not. I mean, there are pokemon with samurai imagery, or using imagery of various yokai and other Japanese cultural elements.

Now, it's been a long time since I looked at any L5R stuff, and then it was in 3e's "Oriental Adventures" that used L5R as a base. As I recall, it was fairly straightforward and didn't really exocitize much of anything. At least not in the same way that the Western idea of a harem was a deliberate sexed-up misinterpretation of the real thing.

It's often a difference between people in the original country and immigrants from that country to the country in question (who often feel more insecure due to local histories of discrimination, etc.). There was a famous case where a high school student wanted to wear a qipao/cheongsam dress to prom, got flak from local Chinese-American activists who thought it was cultural appropriation, and support from Chinese people in China who were tickled people liked their local crafts.

Teenager’s Prom Dress Stirs Furor in U.S. — but Not in China (Published 2018)

After a Utah high school student wore a Chinese-style cheongsam, Asian-Americans’ reactions were blistering. But that perplexed many on the other side of the world.

www.nytimes.com

There was a similar situation with an exhibit where you could put on a kimono at the MFA in Boston below a late 19th-century painting of a (Caucasian) woman trying on a kimono a few years back--Americans thought it was appropriation, the Japanese in Japan were disappointed in the ruckus and hoping to get attention for their declining traditional kimono industry. (The original painting was Monet making fun of the love of Europeans of his era for 'exotic' Japanese items, amusingly enough.)

MFA Director On Kimono Controversy: ‘I Think That Was Misguided And Apologize’

Last summer, the MFA announced that is was cancelling its “Kimono Wednesdays" events in the face of protests. For several Wednesdays, protesters stood in the gallery with signs charging that the museum’s “exotic” approach to Japanese culture was racist.

www.wbur.org

There's also the question of 'your game' (which only really has to satisfy the players) versus 'publicly released product' (which can reach, and therefore offend, many more people).

 

[billd91]

It's often a difference between people in the original country and immigrants from that country to the country in question (who often feel more insecure due to local histories of discrimination, etc.). There was a famous case where a high school student wanted to wear a qipao/cheongsam dress to prom, got flak from local Chinese-American activists who thought it was cultural appropriation, and support from Chinese people in China who were tickled people liked their local crafts.


There was a similar situation with an exhibit where you could put on a kimono at the MFA in Boston below a late 19th-century painting of a (Caucasian) woman trying on a kimono a few years back--Americans thought it was appropriation, the Japanese in Japan were disappointed in the ruckus and hoping to get attention for their declining traditional kimono industry. (The original painting was Monet making fun of the love of Europeans of his era for 'exotic' Japanese items, amusingly enough.)

This is one of the reasons it's such a complicated topic. Who arbitrates whether it's cultural appropriation or not? The source culture? The immigrant culture in the locale where the issue comes up? Is the latter itself a form of appropriation with respect to the source culture, particularly if in conflict? Can both authorities be satisfied? Which one should be prioritized?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

When its historical and accurate then the way to do it right is to use them as they existed.

But you for some reason don't feel the same way about the Sword Coast, only harems. And you suggested that there should be "male harems", which are not historically accurate and are completely antithetical to the reason harems existed in the first place.

I don't think you actually care about historical accuracy. You just feel really strongly about harems for some reason.

 

[Ixal]

But you for some reason don't feel the same way about the Sword Coast, only harems. And you suggested that there should be "male harems", which are not historically accurate and are completely antithetical to the reason harems existed in the first place.

I don't think you actually care about historical accuracy. You just feel really strongly about harems for some reason.

As I said in the post, that was a suggestion of a compromise from me. I also quite specifically said how I am not happy with the FR in general.
Quite some selective reading you have there. Do you really think that will foster an actual discussion?
And why always harems? Because you and others keep bringing them up, often by falsely saying that I want nubile womans despite me saying I want accurate harems like Faolyn just did or otherwise twisting or flat out ignoring my words.

 

[Faolyn]

Would you please stop shifting goalposts for a moment and not constantly jump around from who owns culture and thus can give permission to use aspects of it like it is apparently required to be respectful to how harems look like and adding strawmens about me wanting "hollywood nubile woman harems" first in board games and now books despite me specifically saying that this is not the case?

I haven't shifted any goalposts or created any strawmen.

So let's start over: why is it upsetting you that a board game didn't have harems and one or a couple of people noted that it this was good?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Would you please stop shifting goalposts for a moment and not constantly jump around from who owns culture and thus can give permission to use aspects of it like it is apparently required to be respectful to how harems look like and adding strawmens about me wanting "hollywood nubile woman harems" first in board games and now books despite me specifically saying that this is not the case?

It still seems like the answer for many folks is, "if anybody might be offended, don't do it. That's all that matters".

 

[MGibster]

It's often a difference between people in the original country and immigrants from that country to the country in question (who often feel more insecure due to local histories of discrimination, etc.). There was a famous case where a high school student wanted to wear a qipao/cheongsam dress to prom, got flak from local Chinese-American activists who thought it was cultural appropriation, and support from Chinese people in China who were tickled people liked their local crafts.

The irony here is that the qipao in its modern form exists because Chinese seamsters were influenced by western fashions and trends.

 

[beancounter]

It still seems like the answer for many folks is, "if anybody might be offended, don't do it. That's all that matters".

Yep, walking on egg shells for fear of offending someone somewhere is no way to live.

What's really bad, is that what is offensive just keeps on growing and growing endlessly.

It's become nothing more than a subtle means of manipulation and control.