Alchemical Fireballs?

[Psifon]

So are you telling me that my character with his 21 Int score, cannot design a glass jar that will reliably break?

 

[kreynolds]

So are you telling me that my character with his 21 Int score, cannot design a glass jar that will reliably break?

Perhaps you should have mentioned that you designed custom jars to do this? I hope you have good Craft (Pottery) or Craft (Glass Working) skills.

It doesn't matter. The spell specifically states that the item simply grows in size upon impact. Your arrow would thud into someone, but the jar wouldn't automatically break. If it hit the ground, and it was designed to break, that would be different. If it wasn't designed to break, it might not even break when it hits the ground. The jar would take falling damage, so it's possible that it will break, but not a guarantee.

 

[Psifon]

What you are saying is that the game mechanics for breaking a glass no longer apply when the glass is shrunk. Why? It's still a glass jar. A small glass jar or no. The rules on grenade like missiles clearly state that it automatically breaks. If you want to nerf this application of the rules for your campaign, that's fine, you don't need to cook up a this long-winded explanation. Just say it doesn't work.

You are evoking the rules on Shrink Item. I am evoking the rules on grenade-like missiles. I think my interpretation makes a lot more sense than yours does-small glass jars don't break, but big ones do? Why? What I am saying is that we are both right: The glass would break AND the item would return to normal size on impact. BOTH rules apply.

As for the craft glassblowing, I am sure that any competent glassblower can make the necessary jar. You see, if you want to make sure a glass breaks, you don't need to do anything special in it's creation. All you need to do is scratch the glass.

Glass is technically a liquid. When you touch a glass surface, what you are touching is the surface-tension of that liquid. When you scratch glass, you are breaking this surface tension. So if for some reason, the jar wouldn't normally break on impact, all you need to do is scratch the containter before shrinking it, and presto! You have an ACME Sure-break jar on your hands. No skill roll necessary (although a diamond chip is a nice tool to have here-thats what they put in modern glass cutters as a cutting edge- a wheel coated with diamond dust). I learned all this from my step brother, back when he was a professional stained-glass artist.

Also note that if you go to any east-coast fishing community, or any mexican fishing villiage, blown glass is commonly used as flotation devices for nets by fishermen. These items range from about 9" to 2' in diamiter and are nothing more than big glass bubbles. I have seen their manufacture, and they are nothing more than molten glass that is blown by a man with good lungs into the desired shape. They would work fine for this trick, and could even be given temporary holes in the glass by using a prestidigitation cantrip to open the hole and seal it again. Even without this magical fix, a simple jar-lid sealed with wax would do the job fine. This is not high tech stuff, and in fact far more primitive than what the glass blower who lives across the street from me makes every day!

Do you get the idea that I know a little bit about glassblowing?

 

[kreynolds]

What you are saying is that the game mechanics for breaking a glass no longer apply when the glass is shrunk.

No. I said that don't automatically break, especially not at the point of impact when they are reduced in size with the Shrink spell.

Why?

Gee. I don't know. Perhaps because the item is under the effects of the Shrink spell?

It's still a glass jar. A small glass jar or no.

Right, but under the effects of a Shrink spell.

The rules on grenade like missiles clearly state that it automatically breaks.

The spell effect takes precedence, just like magical enhancements. If it didn't, following your logic, then +1 magic weapons could be damaged with a stick.

If you want to nerf this application of the rules for your campaign, that's fine, you don't need to cook up a this long-winded explanation.

I didn't nerf the rules. You did. Perhaps you should read them first.

Just say it doesn't work.

I did, and I explained why.

You are evoking the rules on Shrink Item.

No joke.

I am evoking the rules on grenade-like missiles.

They don't immediately apply. If you Shrink a flask of acid and drop it on the ground, it won't break. Dropping it on the ground is the trigger that causes the spell to return the item to it's normal size. After that, it's just sitting on the ground. The spell does this to keep people from doing what you are trying to do with it.

I think my interpretation makes a lot more sense than yours does-small glass jars don't break, but big ones do?

Your interpretation completely violates the Shrink spell, and you are mistaken on my interpretation. Also, see first answers.

Why?

See previous answer.

What I am saying is that we are both right: The glass would break AND the item would return to normal size on impact. BOTH rules apply.

The glass would break, if it was designed to do so, but it wouldn't break because of the impact of the arrow, but because of the impact that follows, such as with the ground.

As for the craft glassblowing, I am sure that any competent glassblower can make the necessary jar.

Do you have the skill? If not, you will need to get someone else to make it for you. A planter pot has hardness and hit poins, which is what determines whether or not it will break. It does not automatically break simply because you used it as a grenade-like weapon. Why? Because it isn't a grenade like weapon to begin with.

You see, if you want to make sure a glass breaks, you don't need to do anything special in it's creation. All you need to do is scratch the glass.

Glass is technically a liquid. When you touch a glass surface, what you are touching is the surface-tension of that liquid. When you scratch glass, you are breaking this surface tension. So if for some reason, the jar wouldn't normally break on impact, all you need to do is scratch the containter before shrinking it, and presto! You have an ACME Sure-break jar on your hands. No skill roll necessary (although a diamond chip is a nice tool to have here-thats what they put in modern glass cutters as a cutting edge- a wheel coated with diamond dust). I learned all this from my step brother, back when he was a professional stained-glass artist.

Also note that if you go to any east-coast fishing community, or any mexican fishing villiage, blown glass is commonly used as flotation devices for nets by fishermen. These items range from about 9" to 2' in diamiter and are nothing more than big glass bubbles. I have seen their manufacture, and they are nothing more than molten glass that is blown by a man with good lungs into the desired shape. They would work fine for this trick, and could even be given temporary holes in the glass by using a prestidigitation cantrip to open the hole and seal it again. Even without this magical fix, a simple jar-lid sealed with wax would do the job fine. This is not high tech stuff, and in fact far more primitive than what the glass blower who lives across the street from me makes every day!

Do you get the idea that I know a little bit about glassblowing?

Sure. Unfortunately, none of that really applies. See, this is D&D.

 

[AuraSeer]

What you are saying is that the game mechanics for breaking a glass no longer apply when the glass is shrunk.

Yes.

Why?

It's magic, of course.

When you cast Shrink Item, the object is not only shrunk, it's placed in stasis as well. Time for the item stops entirely. Fire doesn't burn, water doesn't flow, and objects are immune to damage.

After your arrow hits its target, the magic starts to unravel. The vase is already in contact with the enemy when it grows back to normal size. Unless something holds it in place, it'll fall to the ground and break at the target's feet.

If you're lucky, your target will stand in the square and get set on fire. However, IMO he should get a Reflex save (DC 15) to either catch the vase, or shove it into an adjacent square. Either way, if successful he would take no damage.

Glass is technically a liquid.

This is a myth. Glass is a solid. If you see an old window where the glass is thicker at the bottom, it's because the window was built that way.

[Edited to remove unnecessarily snarky comment.]

 

[Psifon]

Another idea I had was to use craft glassblowing to make a gun. What you do is make a (masterwork) glass gun-like object, with a chamber that has a small opening out of one end (the "barrel") give it a handle and a stock, all of glass. Cast Glassteel on it.

Then, put a shrunken gallon of alchemist fire (without the container, just the liquid) that has been converted to cloth form. Tamp it in there with a metal rod.

To use, simply point and say the magic word that dispels the shrink item spell. The alchemist fire returns to it's normal size, and squirts out the barrel with significant force! Cool huh?

Of course, a misfire would be bad, and by the time you can cast glassteel, you have much better tricks to use, but you could arm a special unit with these things. Just have the wizard who cast the Shrink Item spells give them all the same command to negate the effect. When he says the magic word, all the guns fire at once, creating a formidable (if short ranged) attack on an enemy unit.

 

[Psifon]

I'm suprised by this heated opposition to what I view as a fun and simple application of a common PHB spell.

Kreynolds said: "Gee. I don't know. Perhaps because the item is under the effects of the Shrink spell? "


In all due respect, this is not an answer. The fact that the shrink item spell is in effect is a foregone conclusion. No where in the spell description does it state that the spell effects the hardness of the item shrunk, or any other physical property except the size (and presumably the weight). Nor does the spell grant an enhancement bonus to the item, making it immune to damage from non-magical sources.


Kreynolds said: "Sure. Unfortunately, none of that really applies. See, this is D&D."

Of course I am aware of this. My preceeding statements were my arguement that the DC of the Craft: glassworking skill would be relatively low for creating this item. A masterwork jar is not necessary as you asserted.


AuraSeer Said: "When you cast Shrink Item, the object is not only shrunk, it's placed in stasis as well. Time for the item stops entirely. Fire doesn't burn, water doesn't flow, and objects are immune to damage"

This is entirely your interpretation AuraSeer. I see nothing in the spell that indicates that time stops for the item. As far as I can tell a shrunken fire, is still a fire, but it is the size of a candle flame. It still consumes the fuel, and nothing in the spell says otherwise. I don't know why you would assume that it did. In fact, my last DM ruled that only fires that had been turned into cloth would avoid being consumed within the normal time span that the fuel source would give it.

What you are saying is that this spell will keep food from spoiling, and that it would keep a corpse from rotting. This last is especially significant since it would (presumably) aid in raise dead spells.

AuraSeer Also Said: "This is a myth. Glass is a solid. If you see an old window where the glass is thicker at the bottom, it's because the window was built that way."

I am not sure what your source of this info is. Regaurdless, glass breaks more easily when it is scratched, so still, there is no need for a high DC and masterwork craftsmanship to make a big jar of alchemist fire that will break on impact.

Arguing about the nature of the jar seems moot to me at this point. I am sure that a glass jar that will break on impact when full would be easy and cheep. I figure 1 gp max for such an item. Acutally 1 sp seems more in line and reasonable to me, assuming I did not make it myself (and yes, I do have a total bonus of +15 in glassblowing, before enhancing my Int with fox's cunning-this is not rocket science guys).

More germane is the arguement about how shrink item works. I submit that shrink item is not a poor man's temporal stasis, nor does it effect the hardness of the item in question. There is nothing in the spell that says otherwise. The statement that it can effect a fire and it's fuel is not an indication that hardness is effected, nor is it an indication that time stops for the item. If you want to say otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.

What CAN effect hardness with this spell is the option of turning it into cloth. Similarly, one can argue that a cloth fire, doesn't burn until restored, because cloth isn't fire, it's cloth. That much is a DM's call, and is SO ambiguous, that it is not worth arguing about here, since every DM will have to decide this one himself.

 

[Psifon]

I have one more thing to add:

Tom, you started this thread because you wanted to know if it was within the rules. As you can see, I argue that it is, others argue that it isn't. In the end you have to ask yourself 3 questions:

1) How will I interpret the rules? --Obviously I hope my arguements have been convincing here. Note also, that lobbing a shrunken volume of alchemist fire with or without a flask around it is legal, without question.

2) Is it overpowered? --Here you have to simply look at the cost of the weapon VS the damage, and compare it to other similar items. Note that a 8 HD fireball from a wand costs 360 gp per charge(or 180 gp and 14.4 xp if I make it myself). Two gallons of alchemist fire cost 320 gp (or 106.66 if I make it myself). Note that a fireball is area of effect. The bolt is not.

3) Is it a fun and creative thing that you want to let into your campaign? --Your call!

-P.

 

[Felix]

I don't have the PHb in front of me so I can't read the spell, but:

"tossing them onto any solid surface" Presumably, this means I could toss a shrunken bowling ball onto the ground and it would grow. Right?

I would think that a x-bow bolt hitting a target would provide much more force than a toss to the ground since the bolt is moving fairly rapidly.

"...a solid surface" so....... are grassy fields considered solid? Grassy fields can be fairly giving. As giving as flesh? Maybe not. Flesh suurrounded by armor? I would say yes. Regardless...

I'd rule that the force applied to the AF in the jar (from the negative acceleration when the bolt stops moving rapidly) would be at least equal to the force of being tossed onto a solid surface. Which would cause the AF to expand.

Even if the jar or bead or whatever didn't break from impact, wouldn't the expanding AF put so much pressure on the inside of the container that it would break?

From that point, it's just a question of how quickly the AF expands to determine exactly when the struck enemy gets hurt. Since AF ignites upon contact with air, some, even if a reduced, amount of damage should be delt in that round.

I know, DnD isn't high school physics, but this works within the rules, right? Or can shrunk jars hold compressed O2 suitable for S.C.U.B.A. diving because it's "magic"?

Afterthought: he can pour the shrunken AF into a regular size AF jar and not have to worry about the magically-time-stasised-jar-of-AF so that it would break naturally. Right?

 

[kreynolds]

I'm suprised by this heated opposition to what I view as a fun and simple application of a common PHB spell.

This discussion is far from heated. I have been replying to you in kind.

Kreynolds said: "Gee. I don't know. Perhaps because the item is under the effects of the Shrink spell? "

Again, not heated. I wasn't being cruel at all.

In all due respect, this is not an answer.

Of course it is. Read the spell.

The fact that the shrink item spell is in effect is a foregone conclusion.

Exactly. Which means that when the affected item strikes a surface, it doesn't break, as that is the trigger for the spell to restore the item to it's original size.

No where in the spell description does it state that the spell effects the hardness of the item shrunk, or any other physical property except the size (and presumably the weight).

I never said it did. I don't know where you're getting that.

Nor does the spell grant an enhancement bonus to the item, making it immune to damage from non-magical sources.

See previous answer.

Kreynolds said: "Sure. Unfortunately, none of that really applies. See, this is D&D."

Of course I am aware of this. My preceeding statements were my arguement that the DC of the Craft: glassworking skill would be relatively low for creating this item.

I stated that for one reason: you're trying too hard to apply real world laws and physics to a fantasy roleplaying game. That doesn't really work.

A masterwork jar is not necessary as you asserted.

That was just a snarky comment, as is evident by the emoticon. Apparently, you took it seriously.

AuraSeer Said: "When you cast Shrink Item, the object is not only shrunk, it's placed in stasis as well. Time for the item stops entirely. Fire doesn't burn, water doesn't flow, and objects are immune to damage"

This is entirely your interpretation AuraSeer.

Not entirely. AuraSeer no doubt got part of that from the description of the Glove of Storing, which shrinks items and store them in stasis using the Shrink Item spell. I agree, however, that description of the glove can't be directly applied to the spell itself, but the intent is there if you turn the item into cloth. It's pretty ambiguous.

Arguing about the nature of the jar seems moot to me at this point.

It's not a moot point at all. By your logic, a jar will automatically break if used as a grenade-like weapon. What if the jar is made of adamantine? Will it automatically break then? No. Why? Higher hardness and more hit points. A glass jar that is designed to hold 5-gallons of fluid would need to be pretty damn hefty compared to a glass flask designed to hold an ounce of fluid. The jar would need to be thicker to support the volume inside. Otherwise, the jar would burst from the pressure against its surfaces. If the jar were designed to be as thin as a flash, that's fine, but it would still need to be of superior design, as it would still need to be able to withstand the pressure of the greater amount of liquid.

By your rationale, if I use an adamantine jar as a grenade-like weapon, it will automatically break. To put it plainly, and no insult intended, but this is simply ludicrous.

(and yes, I do have a total bonus of +15 in glassblowing, before enhancing my Int with fox's cunning-this is not rocket science guys).

So you suddenly have the glassblowing skill, whereas you didn't think you needed it before. I find that odd.

More germane is the arguement about how shrink item works.

Definately.

I submit that shrink item is not a poor man's temporal stasis

I'm inclined to agree.

nor does it effect the hardness of the item in question.

See fifth answer.

The statement that it can effect a fire and it's fuel is not an indication that hardness is effected

See 5th answer.

nor is it an indication that time stops for the item.

I'm inclined to agree, more or less.

If you want to say otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.

Actually, the burden is upon you to show where the heck I ever stated that the spell affects the hardness of the item.

What CAN effect hardness with this spell is the option of turning it into cloth.

Possibly, but I fail to see how it matters.

Similarly, one can argue that a cloth fire, doesn't burn until restored, because cloth isn't fire, it's cloth.

That kinda sounds like it's in a form of stasis, doesn't it?