Alchemical Fireballs?

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: <<sigh>>

striking the surface triggers the expansion of the item.

Correct.

Now explain to me why it would not also break

Because the impact didn't do anything to the item. The impact simply triggered the spell to return the item to normal size. If striking a surface could break an item, that would make for a pretty stupid spell.

simply because it is a flask full of liquid that is striking a wall with some force.

The flask could be empty, full, crooked, twisted, upside down, inside out, and it wouldn't matter.

Why does the spell somehow protect the flask from breaking?

Magic. It is a spell, after all.

Where does it say that it does protect the flask?

If we're gonna get into an "it says, doesn't say" argument, then tell me where does it say that it doesn't?

I just don't see this one the same way you do.

I know you don't. You want to get something with great effect as cheaply and easily as you can, and you want to do it by twisting the rules around, even though they don't support you in the end. Point in fact was when you argued about the low cost of a single charge 8HD fireball from a wand, but again, that was a flawed argument.

I'm not angry either. I'm just frustrated. I can't tell you if you're intentionally trying to make a "cheeze" item or if you just don't understand how the rules work. I initially thought it was the former, then I thought it was the later, but now I think it might be both.

 

[Psifon]

Mistwell, it is easy to get around this pooring thing. Just turn it into cloth, and STUFF it into the bead.

Another use of this is to put shrunken-cloth-gallons-of-alchemist-fire into a small metal flask. I envision a metal flask with a spike built into the base so that you can stick it into cracks in walls or into the ground (like a tent post). Aim the mouth at a door or something. Now if you just say the magic word, the alchemist fire will expand in the flask, shooting out of the flask like a remote-controlled flame thrower. Also, you can make a bunch of these, and give them all the same command word, and activate several at once.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Umm ...

Why are you bothering to put it in a jar in the first place?

Create big puddle of (burning) alchemist's fire.

Shrink it, turning it into cloth, which stops fuel consumption, yes?

Attach cloth to bolt/arrow.

Fire bolt. Upon impact, cloth reverts to burning puddle.


As another alternative consider what happens if you make a Gargantuan arrow/bolt head, shrink it and fire it. What happens to the poor victim that has *that* expanding in his wound?

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Umm ...

Why are you bothering to put it in a jar in the first place?

Create big puddle of (burning) alchemist's fire.

Shrink it, turning it into cloth, which stops fuel consumption, yes?

Attach cloth to bolt/arrow.

Fire bolt. Upon impact, cloth reverts to burning puddle.

Now that's a thinkin' man's approach! Nice! Although, no matter how big the puddle is, it doesn't deal any more damage than a normal flask would. Of course, there is rule-0, but they made a separate thread for that.

As another alternative consider what happens if you make a Gargantuan arrow/bolt head, shrink it and fire it. What happens to the poor victim that has *that* expanding in his wound?

Good idea, but slightly flawed. Arrows don't "stick" in you. The combat and hit point system is too abstract for that. Besides, if arrows did stick, picture the 800 hit point fighter reduced to 10 hit points by an archer. He'd look like a porcupine, he wouldn't be able to fight effectively, let alone move very quickly. The blood loss would be staggering, and every move would cause more damage, and arguably, even more pain, which might force concentration checks, etc, etc, etc. I think you see where this is going.

 

[AuraSeer]

First off: unless otherwise specified, activating a magic item by command word is a standard action. That's a magic item. If you want the same command word to set off ten effects, you have to say it ten times, each of which is a separate action.

Second: Shrink Item does not say how long it takes for an item to return to normal size. Since triggering the transformation is a standard action, your DM may rule that it takes that much time for the transformation to be complete. With a slow transformation, there would be very little pressure, so instead of shooting out like a flamethrower, it would dribble out into a pool.

Once again, you cannot use physics to predict the behavior of magic. You might as well use astronomy to predict the behavior of animals. The one has nothing to do with the other.

If you want flamethrowers and remote mines and explosive arrows, maybe you should play D20 Modern instead. That's a place where physics actually works, and maybe you won't have to deal with difficult concepts like "magic." Or, if you're lucky, "rules."

 

[GuardianLurker]

Re: Re: Umm ...

Good idea, but slightly flawed. Arrows don't "stick" in you. The combat and hit point system is too abstract for that. Besides, if arrows did stick, ...

Actually, I've always imagined that crits do stick - but that's just me, because the concept of a 25-hp arrow "dinking" off the typical 5th or 6th level fighter doesn't work real well either. I mean, let's face it, no matter *how* many points a character has, sooner or later (GM's judgement) the attacks *have* to start dealing actual physical damage.

This is not, however, a disagreement that the HP system is poor/unable to model this directly.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Umm ...

Actually, I've always imagined that crits do stick

Similarly, I've always handled crits being the only attacks that actually hit you, as in "Oh my farking lord! That hurt!" kind of hit. I just don't think they stick. The game would rapidly break down if they did.

 

[Psifon]

First off: unless otherwise specified, activating a magic item by command word is a standard action. That's a magic item. If you want the same command word to set off ten effects, you have to say it ten times, each of which is a separate action.

It is debatable whether a shrunk item is considered a "magic item" under this rule. One could also look at this as something similar to a contingency. If you speak the word, it activates, even if you speak the word by accident. Anyway. This is debatable, and therefore a DM's call. I have no further arguement about this.

Second: Shrink Item does not say how long it takes for an item to return to normal size. Since triggering the transformation is a standard action, your DM may rule that it takes that much time for the transformation to be complete. With a slow transformation, there would be very little pressure, so instead of shooting out like a flamethrower, it would dribble out into a pool.

True, it doesn't specify, and so it is assumed to be effectively instantaneous, just like any dispelled spell or activated magic item. There are exceptions to this (like the fly spell) but these are specifically stated. If you want to nerf this with a house rule, that's fine, but call it the house rule that it is.

If you want flamethrowers and remote mines and explosive arrows, maybe you should play D20 Modern instead. That's a place where physics actually works, and maybe you won't have to deal with difficult concepts like "magic." Or, if you're lucky, "rules."

Now you're just being snippy. I come up with what I see as a cool idea, and you want to disparage the idea on the grounds that it doesn't fit your idea of the genre. <shrug> If you don't like the idea, don't use it, but don't tell me what game to play, that's just insulting.

 

[kreynolds]

True, it doesn't specify, and so it is assumed to be effectively instantaneous, just like any dispelled spell

...most of the time, except for dispelling the Fly spell, like you mentioned...

or activated magic item.

Absolutely not. I'll say this again; Activating a magic item is a standard action unless stated otherwise.

If you want to nerf this...

You don't really have much room to talk when you just nerfed magic item activation in the same paragraph.

call it the house rule that it is.

You mean like the majority of your proposal? (I'm in a much better mood now. Let's see how long it holds. )

 

[AuraSeer]

...that's just insulting.

Thanks, I'm glad you noticed.