Alchemical Fireballs?

[Psifon]

...most of the time, except for dispelling the Fly spell, like you mentioned...



Absolutely not. I'll say this again; Activating a magic item is a standard action unless stated otherwise.

Sure it is, but once you activate the item, you don't wait around till next round for the effect of the item to take place. This is what Auraseer was implying, and I don't think you can argue that a shrunk item takes much time at all to return to normal size. In short, the item returns to normal size on the round that you say the magic word. I appologize if I was unclear about that-by "instantaneous" I simply ment that once activated (as a standard action) the effect of a magic item takes place emmediately.

You don't really have much room to talk when you just nerfed magic item activation in the same paragraph.

See above-I am not nerfing the DMG. I did not mean to imply that I was.

You mean like the majority of your proposal? (I'm in a much better mood now. Let's see how long it holds. )

I am not making any house rules in my proposal at all. What I am doing by trying this stuff is forcing my DM to make house rules. This is fun for me.

I noticed that you have not responded to my question about how shrink Item would prevent a flask from breaking when thrown against a wall. Are you conceeding that it would indeed break on impact?

PS I am glad you are fealing better

 

[Psifon]

Hey, it's your Karma

Thanks, I'm glad you noticed.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly did I do to piss you off?

(or is this about you?)

 

[kreynolds]

I am not making any house rules in my proposal at all.

Actually, the vast majority of your proposal was completely baseless and had little or no rules-ground to stand on. The only way one could do exactly what you want is with house rules. You could pull off something similar within the rules though. But you would need access to magic, XP, and a lot more gold than you think you'd need.

What I am doing by trying this stuff is forcing my DM to make house rules.

Then do it somewhere else, like here. Seriously.

This is fun for me.

Ripping your argument to shreds was fun too.

 

[Psifon]

Ripping your argument to shreds was fun too.

Actually I did introduce one house rule: The one about doing more damage for more alchemist fire. This is a house rule presented by the Sage, but it is a house rule none-the-less.


What was ripped to shreds again? Could you go over exactly what holes you have poked in my idea? I still haven't heard your response to my question about a shrunken flask breaking when thrown against a wall. Untill you explain why a shrunken flask would not break, you have not debunked anything that I can see.

 

[kreynolds]

I still haven't heard your response to my question about a shrunken flask breaking when thrown against a wall. Untill you explain why a shrunken flask would not break, you have not debunked anything that I can see.

Uhm...I already did, dude.

 

[Psifon]

Uhm...I already did, dude.

(Prior post deleted by author

OK, I just found the post containing your answer. I missed it earlier-I think we must have both posted at the same time. Having read your post, I still don't see the problem with this idea. There are no rules for doing what I want to do - this is not a video game - we have DM's to make these decisions.

Just to be clear, the SRD states:
___________________________________________________
Shrink Item

Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
Duration: 1 day/level (see text)
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

The character is able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to one-twelfth of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/2,000th the original volume and mass). Optionally, the character can also change its now-shrunken composition to a clothlike one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

If shrink item is made permanent (see the permanency spell), the affected object can be shrunk and expanded an indefinite number of times, but only by the original caster.
____________________________________________________

This is all. Nothing about anything that would prevent an item from being damaged by normal forces in the universe. If it doesn't say, it doesn't do. Right? I know that you wanted to avoid this arguement, but I don't see how you can go around attributing powers to spells that are not clearly stated in the rules.

I'm sorry Kreynolds, but your just wrong on this one.

And how exactly is it a house rule that you can tie a shrunk item on to the end of a crossbow bolt? There is a rule for how to do this: Craft Fletcher, and the DM has to decide the DC for creating this device, but that is definately within the rules for him to do this.

I just don't get your arguement, much less your conclusion that you have "ripped to shreds" my idea.

BTW, yes of COURSE I am trying to get extra firepower per gp. Of COURSE I am trying to "rape" the rules. I am a munchkin power gamer and proud of it! The whole point of playing a wizard is comming up with cool tricks like this to get extra bang for your buck and make the most of your spells. Shrink Item screams out to players like me, and GOD BLESS WotC for including this little gem in the PHB!

 

[Conaill]

[AuraSeer: I'm on Psifon's side on this one, if you're keeping track.]

[jodyjohnson: I'm sure increased area or increased duration for larger AF volumes would be fine with Psifon too. He's just going with the rule suggested by the Sage.]

kreynolds: I understand the point you're trying to make, but it seems to hinge on the assumption that the gallon flask is Shrunk as well (so it only has a chance to break *after* impact).

What if you use a normal jar/vial (maybe something like A&H's "bottle bolts") and fill it with Shrunken Alchemist's Fire? Obviously, the jar/vial/bottle bolt would break on impact. And unless you want to get picky about the "tossing onto a solid surface" wording, I would say the AF returns to it's normal size and ignites on exposure to the air.

 

[Psifon]

What if you use a normal jar/vial (maybe something like A&H's "bottle bolts") and fill it with Shrunken Alchemist's Fire? Obviously, the jar/vial/bottle bolt would break on impact. And unless you want to get picky about the "tossing onto a solid surface" wording, I would say the AF returns to it's normal size and ignites on exposure to the air.

Actually, you don't want to do this. It is important to have the big flask. The reason for this is safety. Carrying around gallons of alchemist fire is hazardous (to say the least), and heaven forbid you get into a situaton where you can't cast shrink item to renew your spell from time to time, you don't want to end up with a bag of holding full of alchemist fire!. As it is, you will still want to detatch the heads of your bolts if you get in such a situation, just to make sure the DM can't mess with you and say that the glass breaks when it returns to normal size because the pressure of the string tying it to the bolt was too great. This is an added invitation for the DM to mess with you. This is bad.

 

[Ferret]

I think he meant 1 big vase per bolt. So that was not my concern. My concerns were will it actually break, can you shrink a container AND its contents (such as a chest and all the coins in it, or a cage and the animal inside it, or a jar and the liquid inside it), etc.

Please keep the comments coming.

That was what, I mean

 

[Psifon]

Absolutely. You argue that a single charge of a 8HD fireball from a wand is only 360gp, and this is correct. However, the fault in your argument is that wands are only useable by characters that have the spell on their class list, thus the reduced cost in price.

The only fair comparison would be Any spell, single use, use-activated, which is spell level x caster level x 100gp. That would bring the cost of a one time use 8HD fireball that is useable by anyone to 2,400gp, or 1,200gp if you made it yourself. That's a big fat difference over a wand charge.

OK, fair enough, this is a valid arguement. There are some differences however:

1) this is not an area of effect, it effects one target.
2) It does 4d6 over 2 rounds. This means that it is not as effective against fire resistance.
3) A character holding a use activated magic item is not douched with alchemist fire when he is hit with a dispel magic!

This last one does discourage passing these things out to other party members. If you do, then you run the risk of torching the whole party with one dispel magic. A shatter spell would be even more disasterous.