Alignment and a Prisoner...

[Khorod]

Follow-up: if your party was in Hell, and they found a Demon who'd been captured and tortured by Devils, would they feel any guilt about slaying it?
-- N

I always assumed part of the definition of devil was "Officially Recognized & Unredeemable Member of EVIL, so saith GOOD".

The definition of an evil cleric is Servant of Evil, Darkness, & Such.

The first is almost invariably an insta-kill without moral quams, but the second should be a bit more complicated question unless your paladin code is about as subtle as a strict, absolutist interpretation of alignment. Or if the campaign equates Paladin to Crusader Against All Evil & Sin. Its not quite the same thing.

As a brand new NPC with an Unholy Symbol that radiates evil... I think that paladin should be a hair trigger away from killing her. But not doing it until he has cause. To use the Law Enforcement analogy, its against the rules to use lethal force to capture someone before you have a reason for arrest.

Given the outlines of the Archmage Deal and the presence of a Paladin, walking away and reporting her presence would probably be the best balance of action. If you're a paranoid group with moral issues.

 

[Wraithdrit]

Also note for your discussion pleasure...

The paladin is a paladin of Eilistraee, and the prisoner is a Priestess of Lolth.

Enemys on the battle field, and she would have no qualms in killing the paladin... but the paladin on the other hand is following a goddess that endorses the conversion of drow to surface dwelling good.

 

[Clueless]

I always assumed part of the definition of devil was "Officially Recognized & Unredeemable Member of EVIL, so saith GOOD".

Not under Planescape rules it's not... fallen angels and risen fiends... But that also depends at that point on the campaign.

 

[Natural20]

"...Not necessarily. In RtToEE, my LG Rogue (who was dubbed the "pseudopaladin" for a variety of reasons) executed a prisoner we took. Cut his head clean off while he was bound. No alignment issues there..."

How could their *NOT* have been alignment issues there? Good people don't murder, they kill. Wouldn't that have been murder?

Leaving this priestess chained up is the equivalent of a death sentence in this enviornment, as one of her mortal enemies (the Arch-Mage) is going to take over the place. If she hasn't starved/dehydrated to death, he will kill her, so that's just a wimpy death sentance, too.

One of the negatives about being good is HAVING to be good. Sometimes you let a bad person go, because they haven't done anything bad, that you can prove.

 

[Valiantheart]

"...Not necessarily. In RtToEE, my LG Rogue (who was dubbed the "pseudopaladin" for a variety of reasons) executed a prisoner we took. Cut his head clean off while he was bound. No alignment issues there..."

How could their *NOT* have been alignment issues there? Good people don't murder, they kill.

Because alignment is a set of guidelines and not an absolute restriction?

I still think the Paladin would execute the Drow. Paladin kill evil things....its kind of their whole purpose.

As far as it being some kind of cause for atonement the Paladin in this particular question should have fallen already for consorting and reaching an agreement with the Drow Archmage. Paladins cannot bargain or consort with evil under any circumstance.

 

[Clueless]

How could their *NOT* have been alignment issues there? Good people don't murder, they kill. Wouldn't that have been murder?

Wait - is there a difference between execution, murder, and the usual killing?
Parties don't go roving out on adventures without expecting to *kill* things. I would say a guiltless killing is one in self defense, when *you* are attacked without provoking it - otherwise you really aren't trying to avoid spilling blood at all, realisticly. You've going in there *intending* to murder, now justified or not, it's still a pre-meditated thing.
So the real difference for the average dungeon run, is if it's a justified murder or not. Are you there for greed or to wipe out an evil? Could you have gone in without provoking an attack and accomplished your goal? Folks have a right to defend their homes after all.
Presuming you're in there to wipe out an evil or something simular, which justifies the murder. What difference does it *really* make if the evil is bound and gagged, or trying to kill you in self defense before you kill it?

 

[AnthonyJ]

First of all, the fact that it's a paladin of Eilistraee is pretty important, since the whole 'all drow are evil' part obvious doesn't apply.

The ideal response, for just about any paladin, is that a surrendered or helpless opponent should be judged before being executed -- and paladins aren't judges, they're servants of the law. The actual 'judge' would be the paladin's deity (or, in some cases, the relevant secular authorities, depending on the will of the deity towards secular power), but traditionally the role of interpreting the will of the deity is for priests, not warriors (probably higher ranked priests). Incidentally, in role-playing terms the character should likely pray for guidance, though unless the character has an appropriate spell (typically Augury or Commune, neither of which paladins receive) the GM has no specific requirement to respond.

Given that summary judgement is required (unclear from the situation as described; I don't know the module), unless the PCs have knowledge of the priestess' earlier crimes, the only lawful good reason for killing a prisoner is that she's a worshipper of Lolth, and thus clearly both evil, and inclined to do evil in the future. Which many good dieties likely would consider sufficient cause -- but I doubt Eilistraee would.

There's also a pragmatic reason for executing the prisoner, but pragmatic reasons are rarely 'good'.

The preferred response, from the perspective of Eilestraee, is probably that by setting an example of mercy, it is possible that this particular drow will in fact be convinced. It's also desireable for the priestess to spend time in the company of those who have found a better path, as the more options she is given to see the value of a good life, the more likely she is to be converted.

On the other hand, this doesn't mean stupidity. One notable prohibition: allowing the priestess to pray to Lolth (and recover spells) is clearly out. This rather limits the degree to which she can be an asset.

 

[babomb]

As has been pointed out, leaving her there is the worst thing they could do. If she gets free, she'll be more likely to want revenge on the party. If she doesn't, then they've sentenced her to a slower, more painful death than an execution. In other words, she WILL escape and actively try to screw over the players, at least, she would if I were the DM.

Executing her would not be good either, especially considering the paladin's god advocates converting drow when possible. It would not be on the same scale as slaughtering an innocent person, but if I were the DM, I'd give the paladin a warning from his god -- nothing more, if this is his first offense of the sort (especially since he's at least thought about the morality, even if he came to he wrong decision). An appropriate warning might be to turn off his <i>smite evil</i> ability temporarily.

Simply setting her loose is not an evil option, but it's not especially wise. She probably wouldn't have a personal grudge against the PCs, but odds are at some point she'll end up fighting against them all the same. As DM, I'd ideally have her seriously screw over the PCs, but return the favor and spare them -- ONCE. After that, most likely the party ends up converting her or killing her and feeling bad about having to do so.

I think the best option is to keep her as a prisoner. The party has her stay with them, but keeps her in line using magical means (<i>Mark of Justice</i>, <i>Geas/Quest</i>, or the like) or simply keeping her in manacles. In either case, the PCs have her swear not to betray them, under a <I>Zone of Truth</i> if possible. They destroy any holy symbols she has and confiscate any weapons (maybe allowing her to keep a quarterstaff or something if she has a <i>Mark of Justice</i>), but they let her keep any armor so she doesn't get killed (and as a show of good faith). Also, they keep an eye on her at all times, and make it clear that the party will execute her at the first hint of treachery. Otherwise, they treat her with as much care, respect, and dignity as anyone else -- if not, she'll never convert. (Tolkien said that Gollum would have been won over but for harsh words from Sam.) If she proves trustworthy after a time, they can relax the restrictions and hope she's come to like the PCs rather than resent them. DMing in this situation, I'd reward their efforts unless they treated her poorly (in which case she makes it a point to exact revenge). To make it interesting, though, I wouldn't let her conversion be that easy. One possibility is that she leaves the party at first opportunity, and develops plans to conquer the world, release an ancient evil, awaken Lolth, or what-have-you. Then, after years of work building up a powerbase and planning, she begins the plan, only to discover -- suddenly, and in the most horrible way possible -- that she has a conscience. One way or another, the PCs get involved and stop whatever she's done, and she becomes good, assuming she survives. Another possibility is that after being involved with the PCs for some, she genuinely wants to become good. But it's HARD, and everything is so tempting. She causes lots of accidental trouble for the party until she finally gets the hang of this "Good" thing.

 

[S'mon]

EGG says he modelled the Paladin class on archetypes of the 'perfect Christian knight', and that still seems to apply here. Therefore a good question is "What would Galahad/Percival/Lancelot do?"

If they found eg Morgana le Fay or any other evil sorceress type chained up in a mutual enemy's dungeon, I can't imagine for a moment that they would put her to death! If she had committed specific crimes they were aware of, they might take her back for justice. More likely they'd free her just like any other damsel in distress - being careful not to fall for her temptations of course.

I run a pretty gritty campaign world (compared to FR, say), but the idea that "Paladins smite evil" equates to "Paladins must slaughter every evil-aligned being they encounter" makes me slightly nauseous. Kill one drow priestess, there are countless more to take her place. If she can be redeemed - even just a teeny little bit - that's a genuine victory for Good.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Sounds like a "Whatever you do is wrong" screw-the-Paladin situation.

Anyway, you need more than just alignment, the personalities of the characters is more important. Thinking just in terms of alignment doesn't work, as there are more than nine possible personalities.

Geoff.