Alignment - is it any good?

[Alnag]

I dont use alignment rules at all.

But you are not talking about D&D, are you? I assume, that you are talking about your system Warheart, right? Because I expect, that not using alignment rules in d20system is not a problem. The problem of alignment is mostly exclusive for D&D because of its ties to cosmology, settings and mechanics of the system.

 

[Corvus69]

ah, so the only reason for using alignment is because of its ties to cosmology, settings and mechanics of the DnD?

ok I acknowledge it. but I would get rid of alignment dependent rules even if I played regular DnD. They just dont make sense to me.

 

[Wombat]

An amusing anecdote...

Whenever my group plays D&D with its very segmented alignment-based moral system, no matter what alignment they profess to be, the whole group eventually ends up, to one degree or another, with a very mercenary mind set.

Recently, I tried using Burning Wheel's Instincts and Beliefs as a substitute for alignment, thinking that it would better support my players' preferred play style. Oddly enough, I ended up with characters that had suprisingly strong beliefs in some very high-minded ideals.

So, in my experiment at least, alignments were greatly inhibiting free role-play, and my group was much better served by switching to seomthign different.

I have had very, very similar experiences (right down to using Burning Wheel).

There is one guy in our current group (we are not playing D20 currently) who says he loves everything about D20 and has a hard time with any other system ... except that he hates alignment. "Why should I have to have to say what alignment I am? How can a magic weapon or a spell tell if I am Lawful Good or not? Why is it guidelines for characters, but shackles for items, magic, gods, monsters, and everything else?"

Personally, I dropped alignment from D&D ... prior to "1st edition" AD&D...

 

[jdrakeh]

Well, I don't play with those people much. They were generally people I met at game clubs or conventions.

Geoff.

Oh. Yeah. Conventions are magnets for bad gamers

 

[Psion]

Oh. Yeah. Conventions are magnets for bad gamers

So who else is going to GenCon?

 

[Slife]

Despite this fundamental rift in his ethics, he remained essentially unchanged. He was sad and mopey for a while, but he got over it. And in the meantime, he could still fly & fry like always.

OTOH, Spiderman in the second movie.

 

[Slife]

There are other major fantasy protagonists who could be called evil...or at least amoral enough to be no closer to good than neutral.

Elric of Melnibone, Grey Mouser, Thomas Covenant...

anyone else care to add a few?

Dorian Gray.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, except that it's not "out of character" at all.

It's out of character for the alignment. LG people usually respect the law. That doesn't mean an LG character can't break the law and be completely consistent in their motivation (such as if they're loyal to the old crown, overthrowing an illegitimate military coup), though.

Case in point, I had a character once who was very preoccupied with being liked and having a lot of friends and a good "reputation".

She would end up doing a lot of little actions that would be described as "good" because people tend to like you better when you're nice to them.

But she wasn't "good" by a non-action-based stretch. If you asked her to put in an effort to do a good deed she wouldn't get any reward for, she'd scoff at you. And she'd have no troubles cheating people or otherwise being malevolently deceitiful if she thought she could get away with it still smelling like roses externally.

Well, it doesn't sound like she was very good action-wise either. Scoffing, cheating, and deceiving to deliberately harm others just because she can get away with it...those are all actions that are decidedly non-good.

So no matter how much good she did action-wise, at heart she was very much Chaotic Neutral... concerned only with herself, and everyone else could take a hike unless they were willing to admire her.

Her "heart" has been revealed in some of her less-good actions. She's not Good just because she saves a kid. She's not protecting an innocent, she's manipulating the bystanders, for her benefit, which is pretty Evil. Alignment doesn't tell you what's in your heart or mind or soul. It does tell you which side your heart and mind and soul are currently batting for in the great cosmic conflict.

I agree that doesn't use it as designed in 3e... which is why 3e's alignment makes me go "meh". There's little room for shades of grey or ambiguity.

Not true. Does your horoscope sign leave no room for shades of grey? Is your Meyers-Briggs personality profile entirely descriptive of you? Why would you expect two words to be entirely descriptive of the totality of the thoughts and motives of any character? Does your IQ define the totality of your mental prowess?

It doesn't. It's not *meant* to. It just describes which side of the force you're on, so to speak.

The biggest problem with alignment as it is now is that so many people still don't understand what it actually does, and so dismiss it without really understanding how it should be applied in the first place.

If a group doesn't bother wrapping their head around the concept, it's better to ditch the concept for something simpler, more straightforward, and more personal, but it's a good system for those who "get" it.

 

[Alnag]

ah, so the only reason for using alignment is because of its ties to cosmology, settings and mechanics of the DnD?

The only reason? No. Important reason? Yes. It is pretty much the same as get the world rid of labels let's say political parties. Would it be easier to choose from hudreds of no-name candidates without knowing that this one is let's say liberal, that one is socialist and the one at the corner is conservative. I would it be easier for you to choose, if you would know, you also are let's say conservative?

ok I acknowledge it. but I would get rid of alignment dependent rules even if I played regular DnD. They just dont make sense to me.

That's fine, but it is obviously a different argument, than "I don't use alignment, because I don't play D&D." I also don't use alignment, when I play let's say Shadowrun, but that's not a point of discussion. Neither is point of discussion the amount of people who use or not use alignment. The point of discussion is the reason, why to use/not use it. The experience with it and insights on the designer's goal with it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OTOH, Spiderman in the second movie.

Shaka, when the walls fell?

I never saw the first one, and I generally don't watch sequels unless I've seen the start of it. All I know is that Doc Ock was in it, and they generally did a good job with it.