Alignment. Who needs it?

[the Jester]

I like alignments and find them useful in my campaign's metaphysics.

 

[nimisgod]

Hmm. I don't allow evil PCs in my games, and I've often toyed with the idea of disallowing CN, though I have never actually done so. Generally though, alignment is mostly a guideline rather than a straight jacket. Well, execept for paladins, who I hold to a strict moral code.

That's exactly how I deal with alignment, too. Though I can be as strict with Clerics as I am with Paladins (every divine servitor IMG has his/her own code of conduct/set of taboos).

The only use for alignment, as far as I'm concerned, is as a guide to RPing a character and to determine how certain spells/effects affect him/her.

 

[coyote6]

I'm not a big fan of alignment, myself.

I'm still disappointed that we haven't seen the alignment variants that were supposed to be in the DMG.

(Before 3e came out, it was mentioned that variant alignment rules would be in the DMG; when the DMG came out, I looked, found nothing, and asked Ryan Dancey [who was then by far the most frequent WotC insider/poster*], and he said they got cut for space, and might appear in a later product. I'm still waiting . . . )

*He multiclassed.

 

[SSquirrel]

Seem to me if you don't want alignments in your game, you want to play Arcana Unearthed.

Course that does mean you start tossing out D&D staples left and right but it's a good system.

You're right I do heh. Sadly i'll be running not playing it soon. Tossing out staples is one of the reasons why I want it run. (All the following comments IMO of course) And apologies to Monty Python.

Rule 1 No Alignments
Rule 2 Better magic system
Rule 3 No Alignments
Rule 4 Only Humans cross over from the PHB Races/Classes
Rule 5 No Alignments
Rule 6 There is NOOOOO Rule 6
Rule 7 No Alignments

Or in Fight Club, the first 2 rules would be about not talking about alignments *grin*


Oh and whoever was complaining about Monte's rant against alignments...so what? He had a personal opinion that he expressed. I'm sure everyone has their own viewpoint on any number of topics and had something come up in the game that they refuse to ever utilize again. For some folks its alignments. For some its gnomes or kender or 3.5 whips. Not buying perfectly good product for a personal opinion about 1 aspect of the SRD which isn't required for ANY game is just silly to me.

Besides, the way alignment has always been traditionally written (ie prior to 3E and even still in 3E) it is pretty easy to have it come across as something you need to shoehorn yourself into rather than something that is malleable at all. I've understood alignment for along time and decided against it long ago as well. Robert Fripp (King Crimson, Brian Eno, David Bowie and solo guitarist) ahs said that before you can break the rules of guitar you must first understand them. if you ever listen to his music he surely gives said rules a beating if not an outright breaking.

In short, use alignments if you desire and buy material because its good solid material. Don't avoid it b/c the author had a small rant against alignments, which I'm assuming isn't on his page as it's not in the The Rants archive section. Source so we can read it? Don't doubt he ranted on it, just wanna see why it was so inflamatory.

Hagen

 

[Zappo]

Alignments don't shoehorn your character in just one of nine personalities. It works the other way. Your character's complex personality determines his alignment.

Alignment is a function from a very large set to a very small set. Just because it has limited values, it doesn't make the starting set any smaller.

As for the argument that goes "alignment isn't necessary, therefore it is bad": for that matter, playing D&D isn't necessary either. Alignment isn't necessary, but it's handy.

 

[Umbran]

If player characters have a rich personality, then alignment is not necessary.

Alignment isn't even necessary if characters have weak personality. But that's not saying much. Hit Points aren't necessary. Fighters are not necessary. Six stats aren't necessary. Heck, truth be told, the GM isn't necessary. The only thing one absolutely needs in an RPG is people playing roles. Nothing else is truly necessary.

That's something to keep in mind. The question isn't whether a thing is necessary. The question is whether it is useful.

And personality can be complex. The black and white (and grey) of alignment will never be able to "perfectly" define it.

Correct. But then, alignment was never meant to define personality. It is the other way around - personality defines alignment. Alignment is a generalization about the character's actions and motivations.

A personality might be black with grey streaks, it might be white with black speckles.

Yes. But alignment isn't intended to be a perfect and complete representation of an entire personality. It isn't fair to decry alignment for failing to be that which it was never intended to be.

In the real world, if you say, "He's a nice guy," it doesn't shoehorn him into anything. He still can occasionally act like a jerk, but generally be a nice guy. And it isn't an attempt to perfectly define him. It is an attempt to convey some general, vague information, and as such it works fairly well.

I say he is none of these. The rigid alignment system cannot portray what this complex PC is. He is kind of "white with black speckles."

The alignment system is not rigid. It is vague and amorphous. When a great many different behaviors can all be classified as "good", that's not rigid or constraining.

Alignment is a tool designed for use in a game where Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are palpable forces in the universe, much like electromagnetism and gravity are in ours. When I tell you a person's mass, I don't give you a detailed description of his internal structure, but I do give you what you need to know to determine how he interacts with gravity in most cases.

The details of speckles are not particularly important to the forces of alignment in D&D. To a good approximation, these forces work upon the overall average state of the character, not upon the detailed structure.

If you want to run a game where these forces don't exist, then sure, you can ditch alignment.

Alignment has a secondary function of acting as an inspiration and guideline for role-playing. When properly used, it still works well for this, too.

 

[Desdichado]

Correct. But then, alignment was never meant to define personality. It is the other way around - personality defines alignment. Alignment is a generalization about the character's actions and motivations.

That hasn't always been clear in all versions of the game, unfortunately. Which is why, although this position is spelled out fairly clearly in the PHB these days, there's still a lot of confusion in many gaming groups about what exactly alignment is. There's a lot of inertia to overcome from folks who have played the game differently.

 

[Psion]

Your alignment does not determine how the character acts. Alignment is a RESULT of the acts. For your example, the person sounds Neutral Good to me.

Yup.

Alignment is not a behavior mechanic. It is descriptive, not restrictive. It is, ultimately, a magic mechanic.

You can't really use it as a behavior mechanic, even if you wanted such a thing. It simply isn't defined enough. Nor should it be.

And on a side note...how does the traits/quirks thing happen to be good? Can't the same arguements against Alignment be applied to a traits/flaws system? I mean, it limits how the character acts and restricts roleplaying...

Traits and flaws are very bad mechanics, IMO. Most traits are bad because trading a bonus to something you use all the time for a penalty in something you never do is NOT a penalty, even if it is mathematically more significant. Flaws are bad because they upset some level assumptions built into feat chains and class requirements.

 

[Wombat]

This from the guy that also has NO planes or planar stuff.

Yeah, I guess I'm beyond the pale that way

 

[Contrabassoon]

P.S. I unruffled some feathers with my last posting: "Why we love D&D but hate d20". Sorry, I've being properly reprimanded. But, thanks "Author of Crystalmancy" for your support.

How's that martyrdom working out for you?