All About Skill Challenges

[TarionzCousin]

Of course, when this post was written, there was no RC.

RC has always been here. In the beginning, there was RC. Before the Dawn of History, RC was.

--or at least since 13th April 2004.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Because you didn't ask...

Is It A Skill Challenge? Dungeoneer's Official Rules Of Thumb For Determining If Something Should Be An SC:

1. Is it okay for the players to fail? In other words, can the players lose the SC without grinding the plot to a halt?
2. Is there a consequence for failure? Or can the players just try over and over again until they get it right?
3. Is there a clear objective? Do the players understand that they are at Point A and need to get to Point B? Just like an encounter, an SC needs a clear end point: do this and you Win!

If you answered Yes! to all three questions above, then congratulations! This task could be written up as a Skill Challenge! If the answer to any of them was no, meh, just make a skill check and move on with your life.

Some examples of things that are Not Skill Challenges:

• Discovering the location of the BBEG's hideout. This fails question one, which requires failure to be an acceptable outcome. If the players can't find the Evil Sorcerer's Top Secret Hideout what do they do next? Twiddle their thumbs until he comes out and finds them? If you need X to happen to move the plot forward, X should not be a skill challenge.
• Picking a lock in an empty building. This has the opposite problem - failure is inconsequential. No matter how hard the target DCs are, the players can just keep trying until they get it right. Either make the door 'unpickable' or add some kind of time pressure (You hear footsteps coming down the hall! Hurry!).
• Find out that the Duke is really an evil shapeshifter. You may or may not make the skill challenge explicit, but the objective has to be! In this case the players probably don't know why they should talk to the Duke or what information they are trying to discover so they have no way of knowing what they should do. They're just stumbling around and making random stabs in the dark. That's going to frustrate them, or even worse, bore them.

 

[GameDoc]

Because you didn't ask...

Is It A Skill Challenge? Dungeoneer's Official Rules Of Thumb For Determining If Something Should Be An SC:

1. Is it okay for the players to fail? In other words, can the players lose the SC without grinding the plot to a halt?
2. Is there a consequence for failure? Or can the players just try over and over again until they get it right?
3. Is there a clear objective? Do the players understand that they are at Point A and need to get to Point B? Just like an encounter, an SC needs a clear end point: do this and you Win!

If you answered Yes! to all three questions above, then congratulations! This task could be written up as a Skill Challenge! If the answer to any of them was no, meh, just make a skill check and move on with your life.

I'm struggling with this right now. The mechanics and execution of skill challenges I get. It's the narrative aspect that is eluding me. It's harder to figure out how to make the results of the skill challenge meaningful to the outcome of the adventure in a way that it's apparent to the players the story would have unfolded differenly had the skill challenge gone the other way without failure grinding the plot to a halt.

Here is the one I am working up now. Maybe you guys can help me through it.

The players are presented with this scenario:

The general under whom the PCs serve has been poisoned, leaving him comatose. The healers deterime that without an antidote, the general will never wake and succum to starvation and dehydration. This particular poison is based on a type the local lizard folk use for hunting and an antidote might be derived if the healers can get their hands on a sample.
​

Here is the options I want the players to have, but am not sure how much to tell them and how much to let thim figure out:

1. A skill challenge to venture into the swamp and collect ingredients for the poison
2. A skill challenge to negotiate with the lizard folk for a sample.
3. Minor violence - go track down a lizard folk hunter and mug it for its poison
4. Major violence - look for a lizard folk settlement and raid it.

In the first scenario, I am not sure what consequence is appropriate for failure, given that I don't want to kill of their commanding officer, as I have more plans for him as an NPC. But to me it's the most engaging of the skill challenge options.

For the second scenario, what would a failed negotiation look like? If it just then forces them to take what they want through violence, how is that any different than if they had just gone for the fourth scenario?

The thir scenario is just plain boring. Six adventurers trapsing through the swamp to gang up on the first lizard folk they run across. I could have them encounter an entire squad and make it a decent battle, but again, how is that really different from the fourth scenario?

Any thoughts?

 

[GameDoc]

removing double post.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Here is the one I am working up now. Maybe you guys can help me through it.

The players are presented with this scenario:

The general under whom the PCs serve has been poisoned, leaving him comatose. The healers deterime that without an antidote, the general will never wake and succum to starvation and dehydration. This particular poison is based on a type the local lizard folk use for hunting and an antidote might be derived if the healers can get their hands on a sample.
​

Here is the options I want the players to have, but am not sure how much to tell them and how much to let thim figure out:

1. A skill challenge to venture into the swamp and collect ingredients for the poison
2. A skill challenge to negotiate with the lizard folk for a sample.
3. Minor violence - go track down a lizard folk hunter and mug it for its poison
4. Major violence - look for a lizard folk settlement and raid it.

In the first scenario, I am not sure what consequence is appropriate for failure, given that I don't want to kill of their commanding officer, as I have more plans for him as an NPC. But to me it's the most engaging of the skill challenge options.

For the second scenario, what would a failed negotiation look like? If it just then forces them to take what they want through violence, how is that any different than if they had just gone for the fourth scenario?

The thir scenario is just plain boring. Six adventurers trapsing through the swamp to gang up on the first lizard folk they run across. I could have them encounter an entire squad and make it a decent battle, but again, how is that really different from the fourth scenario?

Any thoughts?

To me, having the general at death's door is great. That adds the kind of time pressure that is perfect for skill challenges. Not only that, but I actually think the general's death would be an acceptable consequence for failure, since it moves the plot forward (although not in the way the PCs might prefer!). But it's your NPC.

You are right that skill challenge failures that just result in combat are a bit... dull. Combat in 4e is fun and many players might consider it a reward instead of a punishment. A nice twist can be that failure results in combat... with the odds stacked heavily against the players. "Oh crap, we've attracted the attention of the lizardfolk, and we're waste deep in sludge!"

Good consequences for failure are ones that the players care about. If you threaten to take something away from them that will really get their attention. Example: negotiation with the lizard men fails, and they start demanding large amounts of gold in exchange for the antidote.

I honestly think letting the NPC die is far and away the best consequence for failure, though. It's got drama, pathos, gives the players a clear cut consequence for failure and adds urgency to whatever they're doing. For instance, while they're negotiating with the lizardfolk you could make clear that having to fight all the lizardfolk might slow them down, and they might not make it back in time even if they win.

If he does die, well, maybe there is a famous healer on an inaccessible mountain who can rez him. Or he comes back as a ghost or an avatar of his god. This is D&D, death is a journey, not a destination!

 

[moxcamel]

The players are presented with this scenario:

The general under whom the PCs serve has been poisoned, leaving him comatose. The healers deterime that without an antidote, the general will never wake and succum to starvation and dehydration. This particular poison is based on a type the local lizard folk use for hunting and an antidote might be derived if the healers can get their hands on a sample.
​

Here is the options I want the players to have, but am not sure how much to tell them and how much to let thim figure out:

1. A skill challenge to venture into the swamp and collect ingredients for the poison
2. A skill challenge to negotiate with the lizard folk for a sample.
3. Minor violence - go track down a lizard folk hunter and mug it for its poison
4. Major violence - look for a lizard folk settlement and raid it.

In the first scenario, I am not sure what consequence is appropriate for failure, given that I don't want to kill of their commanding officer, as I have more plans for him as an NPC. But to me it's the most engaging of the skill challenge options.

For the second scenario, what would a failed negotiation look like? If it just then forces them to take what they want through violence, how is that any different than if they had just gone for the fourth scenario?

The thir scenario is just plain boring. Six adventurers trapsing through the swamp to gang up on the first lizard folk they run across. I could have them encounter an entire squad and make it a decent battle, but again, how is that really different from the fourth scenario?

Any thoughts?

Let's take the first one, since to me that one seems the most interesting. Off the top of my head, it seems like the following skills might come in handy:

Nature - successful checks might indicate that one of the ingredients is found. Heal can also take on this role. (maybe give a max number of successes on Nature, and a max number on Heal)

Stealth - a party of hostile lizard folk must be avoided so the party can pass through to an area known to contain one of the rarer ingredients. Failure means a fight, possibly alienating the lizard folk for future assistance.

Diplomacy - if an encounter with the lizard folk seems unavoidable, this one might come in handy. Along with Bluff, Intimidate, and Insight.

Endurance - The general will be dead in 3 days time, so the party will be foraging day and night right up to the last minute. Failure on endurance checks means lost time or some other penalty.

So just based on this skill list, you've got the makings for a good extended skill challenge. The PCs will be spending the better part of 3 days and nights out in the forest trying to gather ingredients. Maybe have some mini encounters to break things up a bit (bonus points if you can work the outcome of these encounters into your skill challenge), but in the end they will either succeed and the general lives, or they will fail and he dies. This brings on all sorts of opportunities for interesting encounters either way.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm pretty much with Dungeoneer on this one. Of course you could consider it a monetary issue. The PCs could resurrect the general, for 5000 gp (500 in heroic tier)! That kind of cash cost will probably motivate them and doesn't threaten your plot. I'd expect the players will think of it as a way out anyway if they fail the SC.

As far as fighting vs using an SC to negotiate, I would leave that up to the players. They can just go in fighting and have a stiff fight. They can go in talking and maybe get what they want. If they fail they could STILL decide to fight, but now it is a tough fight vs 5000 gp and there could be other risks involved (like the swamp is behind enemy lines and they might find it hard to limp back home after being mauled by a bunch of mad lizard folk). Maybe if they fight the lizard folk join the enemy. All of these are plot elaborations but don't directly impact the SC itself, which is about negotiating.

You do run into a lot of these kinds of choices with SCs. Usually when I run into this kind of problem I try to 'reframe' it. Consider ways that you can either break down an SC into smaller encounters or shrink its scope, or think of ways to broaden its scope so that it includes a larger task. Or consider restructuring some elements of the plot so that the SC becomes more focused or interesting or whatever.

It is very true, SCs require a good bit of thought to get well integrated into the narrative so they work well with the story.

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

1. A skill challenge to venture into the swamp and collect ingredients for the poison

In the first scenario, I am not sure what consequence is appropriate for failure, given that I don't want to kill of their commanding officer, as I have more plans for him as an NPC.

Failure:

PCs get the wrong ingredients. The NPC is healed, but permanently crippled. He's still part of the campaign, but the failure of the PCs is forever staring them in the face.

PCs get what they think are the right ones, but upon return they find out they do not work. Further adventuring is required.

PCs can not find the ingredients, but stumble upon a swamp witch who is willing to part with the ingredients. However, she has a price they might not be willing to pay...

2. A skill challenge to negotiate with the lizard folk for a sample.

For the second scenario, what would a failed negotiation look like?

As stated by others, price goes up.

Lizardfolk ask for some land as well as gold. And they're not willing to budge on the land issue.

The lizardfolk don't really care about what may happen to the NPC. They tell the PCs to come back later. PCs must do something to convince the lizardfolk of the immediate need.

Lizardfolk have used up the amount of ingredients they have on hand. Tell the PCs where they can get some more, but won't help them get it.

PCs antagonize elements of the lizardfolk tribe. They get the ingredients, but the failure will cause future problems for the region.

PCs finally get the ingredients, but at the cost of a significant amount of time. The NPC is permanently crippled (as above).

The PCs need to promise something that doesn't directly affect them (trading rights, land usage, no farming by humans during the lizardfolk holy periods, etc), but that ticks off their base of operations. NPCs don't like the deal and will hold a grudge against the PCs for agreeing to it.

 

[LostSoul]

In the first scenario, I am not sure what consequence is appropriate for failure, given that I don't want to kill of their commanding officer, as I have more plans for him as an NPC. But to me it's the most engaging of the skill challenge options.

Here's a thought. Determine what the poison does. It doesn't have to be death; it could be corruption of the mind - madness or domination. (A Divine-magic infused poison?) It could be corruption of the body - weakness or a sleeping sickness. It could be contagious - he seems fine, but in reality he's a vessel for the zombie apocalypse.

There are a lot of things that you can do with poison!

Here's another thought. For running the mechanical resolution of actions taken to acquire the antidote in the swamp, you might not want to go with the standard X successes before Y failures option.

What you may want to do instead is determine where in the setting the antidote can be found. (This can include multiple locations and probably should, though that's more complex.) Then allow the players to determine their PC's actions. Based on the actions of the PCs, determine what hazards they may face.

This can easily be ad-libbed. Wandering monsters, poison in the swamp, lizardfolk raids, disease, false antidotes, a lizardfolk camp, etc.

If you want to structure it, draw a map. Each hex has a specific hazard - and possibly a boon. Place antidotes within the swamp. As they travel, the PCs must negotiate the hazards of the swamp (from simply getting lost to any of the above - you can pre-build "wandering monsters" for each hex). Success on their actions means that they come through (relatively) unharmed. Failure triggers the consequences of the hazard.

Time is also a factor.

The distance between the starting position and the antidote(s) is your Complexity. Each hex requires a check. In this way you'll avoid some of the pitfalls of Skill Challenges.

For the second scenario, what would a failed negotiation look like? If it just then forces them to take what they want through violence, how is that any different than if they had just gone for the fourth scenario?

I would determine the results of the negotiation based on what the PCs actually say and do. Failure could result in immediate attack, the lizardfolk closing the borders, going to war, simply asking the PCs to leave; success could mean requiring initiation rites, the payment of high-quality steel weapons and magic items, access to labour, etc.

In order to set this up you'll need to know the motivations, goals, desires, disposition, and general worldview of the lizardfolk.

The thir scenario is just plain boring. Six adventurers trapsing through the swamp to gang up on the first lizard folk they run across. I could have them encounter an entire squad and make it a decent battle, but again, how is that really different from the fourth scenario?

If you find the third scenario boring, make sure to either resolve it quickly or put tension on the outcome of the encounter. A lizardman raiding party may not be a match for the PCs, but if a few of them escape to warn others of the PC's actions... that could have dire consequences for the PCs (defending against hit-and-run attacks from lizardfolk in their home environment) and the PC's home community (war!).