All i Really Care About is Interesting Choices

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Is FATE now considered part of the mainstream of gaming?

I think "the mainstream of gaming" is too vague to be useful. It is absolutely begging for people to disagree on what is, and is not within the "mainstream".

When we stop harping on phrases like "player narrative control" we find that as a practical matter, Fate play usually sits rather comfortably next to "D&D 5e play when the GM likes to improvise or adjust encounters with medium to high frequency". From the player side, the skills and character traits are a little broad, from the GM side, the times an ways of improvising are suggested.
 

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Reynard

Legend
I think "the mainstream of gaming" is too vague to be useful. It is absolutely begging for people to disagree on what is, and is not within the "mainstream".

When we stop harping on phrases like "player narrative control" we find that as a practical matter, Fate play usually sits rather comfortably next to "D&D 5e play when the GM likes to improvise or adjust encounters with medium to high frequency". From the player side, the skills and character traits are a little broad, from the GM side, the times an ways of improvising are suggested.
FATE is a quite traditional RPG with some interesting narrative tools usable by both the players and GM. FATE is in fact one of the reasons I don't think you need to move too far out of trad in order to enjoy the benefits of such tools. Aspects are cool, and players being able to invent them is cool. But it's no more story game than, say, Bennies in Savage Worlds.
 

This isn't an issue because I ALWAYS play to find out. Even if I am running an adventure I have run before, I am always surprised by the outcome because the thing that matters is what the players do, what choices they make, with random die results (a clutch critical, a terrible fumble, a failed persuasion, etc) informing those things.
OK, but if you run, say, Keep on the Borderland, there's only a certain range of things that will end up being outcomes, right? I mean, a fixed and finite set of things are instantiated by the setting. We can agree that a player might say "can we go find an elvish encampment?" and the GM could certainly invent one and say "yes, you've seen an elf in the market, maybe he knows the way..."

Now, imagine Dungeon World... Perhaps at the start of play a player described the place they used as a base, the Keep. Now, this 'Keep' and the environs around it are going to be much less defined, but lets suppose one of the players stated there were elves living to the north. Suppose the GM makes a move "Jorash, your sister has disappeared!" Jorash says "We search the area where she disappeared for clues!" "You find a feather." "The druid looks at it and tells us what he knows about this." "It could be elvish." (lets assume the dice say this info must be useful). "We go and find the nearest elf and interrogate him!" OK, there you go. The GM still kicked something off, but it was prompted by some opportunity for a soft move (maybe just the beginning of play). Again the GM supplied information that lead to something, but the player supplied the original impetus, there are elves to the north. The GM doesn't have to be asked if this is true, it IS true! The action is focused on something that the character is concerned with (maybe the sister was also established as being especially important in character backstory). You COULD do this in 5e, but you'd have to not build the world ahead of time, and you'd have to be very careful to insure that the players got a chance to state facts, etc.
I don't need or want "story game" elements because the story that emerges out of play is the one that interests me. The situation or circumstances I as GM set up (or choose in the case of a published scenario) are just a foundation on which that "story" is built -- just like (it sounds like) the constraints of the PbtA/FitD game.
Eh... Not quite the same. There's always a GM-supplied 'framework' of story in classic D&D play, even if its a more story-focused kind of D&D play. The GM comes up with all the NPCs, how they fit together, what the driving events are, etc. Things may evolve from there in some games, and that might potentially come to resemble something like a DW game, in some degree. However, the flow and development of the SN DW game is much more fluid and centered much more on where the players indicate they are taking it. So, for example, it is utterly impossible to go 'off the rails' in DW, not even theoretically possible. No envisaged scope of action exists whatsoever, and wherever the PCs go, that's the place their story is. There's no "you're going to boringland, nothing is going to happen here." or "the dungeon is thataway!"
The play loop of
GM: Here's the situation.
Players; Here's what we do.
{dice are rolled, maybe]
GM: Here's the new situation.
etc...

Is what I find compelling. I improv a lot, sometimes 100% (but usually more like, say, 75%, because technically I prepped the situation) so I am always, always surprised by the outcome.

EDIT TO ADD: I can't imagine how constrained list of "move" responses for me as GM would improve the experience for anyone at the table.
Well, the play loop is not really different. The difference rests more in who owns the fiction and what the scope of declarations is for the players. In Dungeon World specifically the GM has to ask questions of the players, and use the answers to construct the fiction, this is part of the process. So, maybe the loop starts with a "GM: What do you think is here?" "Players: Oh this area is an X." "GM: OK, the X is infested with those Y you ran into the other day, one of them is attacking you!" ...
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I think "the mainstream of gaming" is too vague to be useful. It is absolutely begging for people to disagree on what is, and is not within the "mainstream".

When we stop harping on phrases like "player narrative control" we find that as a practical matter, Fate play usually sits rather comfortably next to "D&D 5e play when the GM likes to improvise or adjust encounters with medium to high frequency". From the player side, the skills and character traits are a little broad, from the GM side, the times an ways of improvising are suggested.
Who's harping on what now? I don't follow where you meant that to come from or go.

You are correct, though, that the best laid out recommendations I've seen for running FATE are hard genre sim, where play is still very much exploring the GM's ideas of setting and/or plot. I think that's not the best way to use that ruleset, but it's not like FATE bothers to tell you how to use it, really, so it's of little surprise that people steeped in how D&D plays will approach FATE in the same manner. Nothing at all wrong with that, either.

But FATE is definitely not mainstream because it does introduce some pretty hard player-side plot coupons, which seem to be generally frowned upon. I also don't see why FATE gets a pass into the mainstream because you happen to like it while PbtA has to sit firmly on the sidelines, despite rather similar market share.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
FATE is a quite traditional RPG with some interesting narrative tools usable by both the players and GM. FATE is in fact one of the reasons I don't think you need to move too far out of trad in order to enjoy the benefits of such tools. Aspects are cool, and players being able to invent them is cool. But it's no more story game than, say, Bennies in Savage Worlds.
Honestly, the stark requirement for a specific metacurrency moves FATE out of the 'mainstream' unless you want to radically define that term. Don't get me wrong, I like FATE well enough, but it's not a 'standard' RPG. Standard RPGs don't generally have a metacurrency that's key to play. Shades matter, sure, but FATE isn't it, wonderful as it is.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Honestly, the stark requirement for a specific metacurrency moves FATE out of the 'mainstream'

Why does the nomenclature "mainstream" include "not have metacurrency"? Not that I find the term "mainstream" to be useful here, but it seems weird to pin it on specific mechanics. Are you sure you aren't conflating "mainstream" with "traditional" or the like?

But even then, TSR's FASERIP Marvel Super Heroes back in 1986 had metacurrency that was central to play - the Karma Point was used both for die result manipulation and advancement, but the game is highly traditional. WoD games have metacurrency in several forms. Shadowrun has metacurrency in Karma. It seems a pretty common mechanic, to me.
 
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They really aren't constraints. If that's what it sounds like to you, look at the rules for Blades in the Dark. If anything it's the lack of constraints that tends to freak people out.


Story now games are much, much more surprising, since you aren't just watching PCs move within a relatively narrow range of freedom. The entire narrative flow can change direction at any point. Maybe a success-with-consequence that a player rolls has you saying that a blizzard is rolling in, or that a cop shows up. Or a miss on a roll might mean an ally turns out to be a traitor. You could say that's all just improvisation, but it's far more improv, to a much greater degree, and with very different triggers.



Again, I think you're forming some pretty hard opinions--and spending a decent amount of time expressing them--without really looking at the material. Older PbtA games might have really pushed the idea of a set list of GM moves, but that's basically gone in newer games. Thirsty Sword Lesbians has a list of sample GM moves, but they're just suggestions. Brindlewood Bay and The Between suggest possible consequences, not moves. The point of most of those suggestions is to help the GM with all of the improvisation they have to do.

One of my favorite consequence suggestions in Brindlewood and The Between--and one that I think illustrates how different this approach is from a traditional game's--is to split up the PCs. That's something that, in other systems, might require a flurry of rolls and back-and-forth, and could be met with the usual panic over player agency. Perception rolls, Dex saves, Willpower checks, etc. to stop the door from locking behind you, or to resist the hallucination or spell drawing you away from the others. But in horror/investigation narratives getting split up is a pretty common trope. So if a consequence is rolled, and it works in the fiction, it can just happen. And that's not based on the GM triggering the "Split up the party move." It's just one of many possible consequences.

And in Scum and Villainy, the list of suggestions is framed like this:

"GM ACTIONS
In the same way that player characters have actions they can use to get things done in the game, so do you have a set of GM actions. When you need to contribute to the story and you are unsure of what to do, look at this list of actions and pick one."

Just suggestions. Ultimately, though, it's obvious that you're opposed to this approach, and you don't want to try running one of these games. That's totally your call. Just seems like you're spending a lot of time and effort pushing back on something you don't really get, and don't really want to.
And on the topic of 'GM actions', its not like they are in any way constraining. In Dungeon World the game literally says "GM moves are just what you have always been doing as a GM." And they are COMPLETELY open-ended. Like:

Use a monster, danger, or location move (these things can be assigned moves in prep if you wish, though honestly I never bother)
Reveal an unwelcome truth
Show signs of an approaching threat
Deal damage
Use up their resources
Turn their move back on them
Separate them
Give an opportunity that fits a class' abilities
Show a downside to their class, race, or equipment
Offer an opportunity, with or without a cost
Put someone on the spot
Tell them the requirements or consequences and ask

There is also a list of 'dungeon moves'
Change the environment
Point to a looming threat
Introduce a new faction or type of creature
Use a threat from an existing faction or type of creature
Make them backtrack
Present riches at a price
Present a challenge to one of the characters

I mean, if you look at these, they're all actually pretty general and overlap a lot, they are more ideas for things GMs can do to 'make fun happen'. I mean, 'Reveal an unwelcome truth' is so general it is just "give out some bad news." The DW GM is not naming moves, there are NO RULES for any of these moves, except maybe the rule that a 'hard move' deals damage or is otherwise directly harmful to at least one PC, while anything that just ups the pressure or creates an indirect threat is a soft move. Technically the GM pretty much use either whenever a move is invoked, and that happens when a player rolls 6-, when the players ask you what happens next, and whenever the players hand you a golden opportunity (basically ask for it).

DW is really an amazingly simple game (well PbtA in its general form is). It is completely open-ended, just like any trad RPG, anything can happen (I mean, perhaps bounded by the D&D-esque genre, but that doesn't put many limits on things, frankly).
 

Reynard

Legend
Who's harping on what now? I don't follow where you meant that to come from or go.

You are correct, though, that the best laid out recommendations I've seen for running FATE are hard genre sim, where play is still very much exploring the GM's ideas of setting and/or plot. I think that's not the best way to use that ruleset, but it's not like FATE bothers to tell you how to use it, really, so it's of little surprise that people steeped in how D&D plays will approach FATE in the same manner. Nothing at all wrong with that, either.

But FATE is definitely not mainstream because it does introduce some pretty hard player-side plot coupons, which seem to be generally frowned upon. I also don't see why FATE gets a pass into the mainstream because you happen to like it while PbtA has to sit firmly on the sidelines, despite rather similar market share.
In the example I gave, Savage Worlds, the metacurrency in that game is absolutely central to play.
 

Reynard

Legend
Why does the nomenclature "mainstream" include "not have metacurrency"? Not that I find the term "mainstream" to be useful here, but it seems weird to pin it on specific mechanics. Are you sure you aren't conflating "mainstream" with "traditional" or the like?

But even then, TSR's FASERIP Marvel Super Heroes back in 1986 had metacurrency that was central to play - the Karma Point was used both for die result manipulation and advancement, but the game is highly traditional. WoD games have metacurrency in several forms. Shadowrun has metacurrency in Karma. It seems a pretty common mechanic, to me.
Similarly DC Heroes from Mayfair.
 


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