All i Really Care About is Interesting Choices

Who's harping on what now? I don't follow where you meant that to come from or go.

You are correct, though, that the best laid out recommendations I've seen for running FATE are hard genre sim, where play is still very much exploring the GM's ideas of setting and/or plot. I think that's not the best way to use that ruleset, but it's not like FATE bothers to tell you how to use it, really, so it's of little surprise that people steeped in how D&D plays will approach FATE in the same manner. Nothing at all wrong with that, either.

But FATE is definitely not mainstream because it does introduce some pretty hard player-side plot coupons, which seem to be generally frowned upon. I also don't see why FATE gets a pass into the mainstream because you happen to like it while PbtA has to sit firmly on the sidelines, despite rather similar market share.
The problem with saying FATE is ANYTHING AT ALL is that it is a very wide-open toolbox that you can do many things with. Its perfectly possible, as you may be hinting, that it is QUITE capable of supporting things like Story Now hard Narrativist play. You simply have to formulate your FATE-based game in such a way that this is how it plays! For instance you could construct Mantles that are basically like DW playbooks, and use various types of character attributes to give the GM hooks, ala bonds, etc. Honestly, you could get very similar results to PbtA games.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
When we stop harping on phrases like "player narrative control" we find that as a practical matter, Fate play usually sits rather comfortably next to "D&D 5e play when the GM likes to improvise or adjust encounters with medium to high frequency". From the player side, the skills and character traits are a little broad, from the GM side, the times an ways of improvising are suggested.
I would love to believe this, Umbran, but my experiences debating the rules, mechanics, and principles of Fate with more traditional-oriented gamers here who view it as anethema makes me highly skeptical that it sits comfortably near 5e.
 

pemerton

Legend
See, this is where I get into trouble for asking: "So why do these Story Now games even have GMs" Wouldn't they work just as well or even better if they didn't have this asymmetrical relationship? Couldn't a combination of random tables and participant input do the job?"

And before anyone get angry (again) for me asking, note that I am NOT asking to be snarky or pejorative. I am totally serious. What does the GM add to this style of play that requires that role be filled, that isn't just a legacy issue? Surely if Bob's character is talking to an NPC, Mary can take the role of the NPCs since in the end the dice are going to decide what the result of the conversation is going to be?
Did you read the last answer you had in reply to this:

Serious question: why does AW (and by extension PbtA in general) even have a GM. It seems like the role as defined above could be performed by a set of charts governing situations and die roll results.
The way I understood his explanation was that the GM in AW does not have the same authority to conduct the trad loop of explain-listen-explain. So I was musing and thinking that the model seems like a reasonable base for a GM-less game, since you can use procedural generators to "make life hard for the PCs."
I do think most trad players would balk, with good reason. I think most trad players would prefer to play out the consequences of that failure, rather than be told the story of what happened.
There's a degree of tension here: who do you think is going to come up with narrations like the one @Campbell suggested - of the tables being turned when a roll to Go Aggro fails - if not the GM?

So anyway, the function of the GM in AW is spelled out in the rules. There are two main components to the GM's role (I'm quoting from pp 109, 116-7):

Apocalypse World divvies the conversation up in a strict and pretty traditional way. The players’ job is to say what their characters say and undertake to do, first and exclusively; to say what their characters think, feel and remember, also exclusively; and to answer your questions about their characters’ lives and surroundings. Your job as MC is to say everything else: everything about the world, and what everyone in the whole damned world says and does except the players’ characters. . . .

Whenever there’s a pause in the conversation and everyone looks to you to say something, choose one of these things [a GM move] and say it. . . .

Always choose a move that can follow logically from what’s going on in the game’s fiction. It doesn’t have to be the only one, or the most likely, but it does have to make at least some kind of sense.

Generally, limit yourself to a move that’ll (a) set you up for a future harder move, and (b) give the players’ characters some opportunity to act and react. A start to the action, not its conclusion.

However, when a player’s character hands you the perfect opportunity on a golden plate, make as hard and direct a move as you like. It’s not the meaner the better, although mean is often good. Best is: make it irrevocable.

When a player’s character makes a move and the player misses the roll, that’s the cleanest and clearest example there is of an opportunity on a plate. When you’ve been setting something up and it comes together without interference, that counts as an opportunity on a plate too.

But again, unless a player’s character has handed you the opportunity, limit yourself to a move that sets up future moves, your own and the players’ characters’.​

I don't think that a chart makes for very good conversation! Or is very good at extrapolating from established fiction to new fiction.

I agree with all this, which is one of the reasons I don't understand the need for or like the PbtA method of GM constraint. It is unnecessary and limiting for no benefit.
I understand where they come from, I just don't think they are necessary. Systemic attempts to bind the GM to a prescribed set of outcomes feel like either trying to turn the GM into a processor, or trying to defend the players against some mythical viking hat bad GM. I get that people like PbtA games, but I can't abide the basic design goals as you articulated them.
I don't think you are really appreciating the significance of the rules that govern what a GM of an AW game says, as set out in what I just quoted above.

Think about how often, in typical D&D play, the GM makes hard moves (ie irrevocable consequences for the players) without anyone having failed a roll, or otherwise handing an opportunity on a plate: for instance, a player says their PC walks through the doorway and the GM calls for a save because they triggered the trap; or the player looks in the chest hoping to find something-or-other, and the GM tells them it's not there; or the player asks the NPC, "So what's going on with <something or other the PC cares about>" and the NPC replies "I don't know".

And now imagine a game in which the GM can't make those hard moves, and has to make soft moves instead. Think about how that would ramify everything else in the game: the significance and function of prep, how consequences flow from action resolution, who gets to decide what is at stake in the fictional situations.

That's what flows from the rules for GMing AW. You can't get those benefits without the rules.
 

pemerton

Legend
Depending on the game I do sometimes find a lot of value in having conflict neutral scenes that are mostly about establishing character, getting a sense of the stakes or just exploring bits of the setting so that the conflicts that come up in play feel more meaningful. I prefer to approach such scenes with clear eyes and full hearts.

Rather than randomly wander about, hopeful that the GM will read your cues or just try to insert these moments I prefer an approach where a player might say things like "I would like to have a scene where I introduce myself to the sheriff and get a feel for who they might be". That way we don't have to guess and can be mindful as a group of how much spotlight we're taking and manage the pace of play as a group. Sometimes we might even put a pin it and flashback to it later.
I think my first step when I get that "let's GO" urge will be to instead pause a second and say "what is it you're trying to accomplish here". Just have the player tell me what they're going for so we can get to it. If they don't know or aren't sure, then maybe I'll move things along.
I think this sort of overt conversation about what scenes participants would like to engage in, what the point of a scene is, etc, would be quite alien to many RPGers.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Plot-coupons are a subset of metacurrency. Hitpoints are metacurrency.
Plot-coupons, yes.

Hit points, though, are kind of betwixt and between. They're metacurrency in that what they actually reflect in the fiction is hard to pin down and harder yet to agree on, yet they're not metacurrency in that players don't have any real say in how they are initially collected/earned nor, in many cases, when and-or to what degree they are spent. Further, in order to recover them after they have been used some sort of in-game resource(s) must be spent, be it curing spells, potions, resting time, or whatever. They cannot (usually) be recovered entirely at the meta level, unlike, say, a 5e Inspiration token can.
 

mythago

Hero
I was going to say much the same thing: Robin's Laws had a big impact on me when it came out what 20 years ago now, but it's a trad GMing book, through and through.

Sure. But it's also a book that explains how players want different things out of their game, and how a group can butt heads (or even fall apart) without understanding why if those expectations are not understood. I wish I'd read it before running a very frustrating Delta Green campaign in which one of the most enthusiastic (at the beginning) players regularly sulked and was unhappy when the PCs had setbacks.... something that is pretty baked into the whole setup.... because said player was really a powergamer. That didn't make him a bad person or a bad player, but had I understood his style of play earlier, I would have steered him away before he managed to make himself and his fellow players miserable.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I would love to believe this, Umbran, but my experiences debating the rules, mechanics, and principles of Fate with more traditional-oriented gamers here who view it as anethema makes me highly skeptical that it sits comfortably near 5e.

With respect, debating rules, mechanics, and principles on the internet is not a good way to decide what the game actually is or does. Internet debate has a great many failings that get in the way of clear assessments.

Fate wound up with a PR problem, in that it is not a game that came out of The Forge community, but folks chose to describe it as if it were. A great many cognitive biases were set by the language used, and the focus given to some aspects of the game, rather than to how it actually plays in practice. Theory-oriented discussion continues that trend, while practice-based assessment can allow you to break free of that.
 


Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Why does the nomenclature "mainstream" include "not have metacurrency"? Not that I find the term "mainstream" to be useful here, but it seems weird to pin it on specific mechanics. Are you sure you aren't conflating "mainstream" with "traditional" or the like?

But even then, TSR's FASERIP Marvel Super Heroes back in 1986 had metacurrency that was central to play - the Karma Point was used both for die result manipulation and advancement, but the game is highly traditional. WoD games have metacurrency in several forms. Shadowrun has metacurrency in Karma. It seems a pretty common mechanic, to me.
Yeah, maybe not the best word choice. I wasn't trying to suggest that anything with a metacurrency is lesser than in any way. I just know a lot of gamers for whom the presence of a metacurrency like FATE points is usually a complete deal breaker, a notion that (while unfortunate IMO) doesn't seem to be that uncommon. I think it's really interesting how some games that do have metaacurrency (like your excellent example of FASERIP) get a pass while other's don't though.

That said, Karma in Shadowrun doesn't have near the primacy of place that FATE points do in terms of play at the table, so maybe it has something to do with that. IDK...
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I think there's some differences between games where you can, at least in theory, play the game without using the metacurrancy (though it'd probably be unpleasantly swingy) and ones where its essentially impossible; at least the incarnations of Fate I'm familiar with landed in the latter because you'd essentially have to completely ignore Aspects.
 

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