All Power Attack, All the Time!

takyris said:
Wow, Zappo, that IS clever.

What you should also do is have invisible, incorporeal silent creatures immune to force effects and ghost touch weapons who heal the bad guy each round. That way, if any of your players DID bother to do the math and play their characters effectively, you could just undo any damage they take, too!
Uh? Apart from the fact that I was in no way being unfair in any of my examples, do you think that using math to maximize combat effectiveness is a good behaviour for a player and shouldn't be discouraged? Could be, mind ya, but not in my game.

BTW, I'll steal the invisible healer idea. Take away the incorporeal bit for fairness, and you've got a tactic that will be real scary until someone casts see invisible. :eek:
 

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Bhaal said:
Hmm, I had a gargantuan zombie planned in a few sessions and two characters that love power attacking... I think I'll make them bring drinks for that session.

As for power attack not being useful against decent AC opponents: Potions of true strike are cheap. Even more so if you have a spellcaster in your party willing to lose a little exp (a good investment, since they now have a 6 foot blender guarenteed to keep their hide safe in combat) . In another campaign, we have a paladin who loves to quaff a true strike, then wade in with a full power attack/smite/etc to "break the ice" against the BBEG encounters. The DM doesn't mind, since he's very good at incorporating our minor smackdowns into his own NPCs. Suddenly all BBEGs are quaffing potions of their own just before attacking...

well since BOTH sides do it i guess it even out but...

from the SRD

Brew Potion [Item Creation] Brew Potion [Item Creation]
Prerequisite: Spellcaster level 3rd+.
Benefit: The character can create a potion of any spell of 3rd level or lower that the character knows and that targets a creature or creatures. Brewing a potion takes 1 day. When the character creates a potion, the character sets the caster level. The caster level must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than the character's own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level multiplied by its caster level multiplied by 50 gp. To brew a potion, the character must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing half this base price.
When the character creates a potion, the character makes any choices that the character would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, the character must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion.


True Strike
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: The character
Duration: see text
The character's next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, the character is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

true strike in a potion are not by the book legal. A true strike you could cast on someone else should be at least a level 3 spell.
 
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Rav said:
Zappo's "solution" rubs the fact that he is being obnoxious in his face

Yes, but he's also keeping the Player from playing his PC in the way he wants to. A better way to handle this problem would be to ask the Player to do the math before he comes to the game, and asking him to try and speed it up during the current game.
 

frankthedm said:

true strike in a potion are not by the book legal. A true strike you could cast on someone else should be at least a level 3 spell.

By the book, there is no information to determine whether it's possible or not. There is precedence in other DMG potions that use "Personal" spells, so it could be extrapolated that it is possible. Look at the last section of the following discussion by Sean K. Reynolds for more info:

http://seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/magicitemcreation.htm
 

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but right now on WotC's min/max boards a few guys are working out a calculus equasion to determine the best statistical PA amount based on your total BAB vs AC. Finished product should be a nifty Excell file.
 

Roland Delacroix said:
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but right now on WotC's min/max boards a few guys are working out a calculus equasion to determine the best statistical PA amount based on your total BAB vs AC. Finished product should be a nifty Excell file.

:rolleyes: This is why I never bother to visit the Wizards-boards anymore... :rolleyes:
 
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Jolly Giant said:


:rolleyes: This is why I never bother to visit the Wizards-boards anymore... :rolleyes:

Care to elaborate? Or were you just trying to start a pro/anti-min/max flame war? Considered that we lose a likewise number of helpfull rules-gurus because they cant stand pretentious snobs on THESE boards?

I ask merely for information :D
 

Yes, but he's also keeping the Player from playing his PC in the way he wants to. A better way to handle this problem would be to ask the Player to do the math before he comes to the game, and asking him to try and speed it up during the current game.

At the same time, I don't think anything he suggested was in any way malevolent. I can actually see an overconfident fighter-type villain doing this... To put in crude terms, I don't think the DM is screwing over the Players as much as the Villain is screwing with the Characters.

It seemed to me that Takyris took Zappo's suggestion to some theoretical extreme to make a point, much like I've seen others do in some of my classes. It can be effective, but only in the right circumstances. As far as I was concerned, Zappo's suggestion was actually clever, and a fair way of doing things.

Assuming that the Martial Villain has a shield, and Dodge, and Expertise, and what-not, who's to say that he won't fight that way? I've always approached RPGs in such a way that the basic rules of the game supplant "common universal knowledge." As it's been stated above, forcing someone to hesitate and not use Power Attack could extend the Villain's life by a few rounds.

What if characters know this in this universe? Player-characters often act "unrealistic" (by real world standardds) and its generally called heroic. It seems to me that the D&D system should be considered as that world's "natural laws" when it comes to roleplaying all characters. So then, it seems that NPCs --especially important villains -- should be allowed to act in such a way that maximizes their effectiveness when it works with the character concept...

Of course, there's always the threat of a campaign devolving into a game of mathematics, but some people enjoy that sort of thing. Personally, I've never had this sort of problem, but I have had some problems getting the players to act in character, even if it means making the "sub-optimal" decision.

Then again, I suppose that's a trust issue. They might be scared that I'll jump on them for making a mistake/bad choice on purpose. I try to reassure them that I wouldn't do that often -- if at all -- that's what the other players are for...

...

I'm serious. Have you ever purposefully made a "sub-optimal" decision because you thought your character would go down that path? If you've answered yes, how many times have the other players jumped down your throat for doing it? I'm not talking about it happening in character, I'm talking out-of-character, when you're all sitting around the table.

I hate that. It makes playing certain characters ... difficult (to say the least). Especially when you and your character's worth are judged on certain decisions being made in the "correct" direction.

In another system, one of the players I'm running a campaign for had his character make a couple of foolhardy decisions, and it seems that there's resentment toward the player for it. I don't like that, I don't like it at all. Anything in character is fine, but out-of-character, these people should know better...

I dunno, like I said, it seems that this is really a Player-DM trust issue. Some people really don't like the idea of one person holding that much artificial power. Some people let that power go to their heads.

I just hope I'm neither the former or the latter, :cool:

- Rep.
 

A player of mine wanted to run an adventure as DM. What happened was he picked the Speaker in Dreams, super-twink module.

Anyways, I tried to play a good roleplay character; a variant cleric/wizard based off the vodoo shaman archetype. Problem is, SiD is super-twinky and my non-munchkined shaman got SO owned and died during the second session.

The rest of the party was hurting as well. Fine, I flexed my mighty DM muscles and made HIM. HE was Grak the Mighty, Level 6 Half-Orc fighter with maxed out Strength. He used power attack as well as power lunge at every opportunity.

It almost made me sick. The VERY first time I used him, I had him power lunge an evil cleric. Crit, max damage with my greataxe.
12 + 9 (my str x 1.5) + 9 (double str bonus from power lunge) + 2 (magic axe) + 6 (power attack) = 38 damage all times 3 (we multiply criticals, not roll them 2 or 3 times...) for a whopping 114 damage! That cleric was a pile of frigging HAMBURGER!!!
 

Reprisal said:
At the same time, I don't think anything he suggested was in any way malevolent. I can actually see an overconfident fighter-type villain doing this... To put in crude terms, I don't think the DM is screwing over the Players as much as the Villain is screwing with the Characters.

I can see it, but it strikes me (especially dumping the shield) as the DM trying to mess with the Player's choices. Like he's saying, "Don't play the way you want to; it's bothering me." That may not be what Zaps was trying to say; but it's a valid interpretation of his actions. I'd think having the Villian using Expertise and Dodge and switching those around are good tactics, but the way Zappo posted it, it sounded like he was just doing it to keep the Player from using Power Attack.

I think a more mature way to handle it would be to ask the player to do the math before the game so that he wouldn't slow things down. Using Dodge and Expertise, though, are just good tactical options.

...

As far as the second part of the post (the general question), I have played that way (making sub-optimal choices) and I try to promote it in the games I DM. Usually when I play it means trying to run away; when I DM, I try not to let a character who is well played bite the bullet for it.
 

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