Allowing PCs to be heroic

[Rafael Ceurdepyr]

example: a dragon is swooping down on the town.

Okay, as a point of clarification, I'm told that this is my version of the situation: do I have a red dragon attack or do I have the PCs long lost sister show up intent on summoning a red dragon?

Also, that I focus on things that D&D doesn't really have skills for.

 

[Jdvn1]

Okay, as a point of clarification, I'm told that this is my version of the situation: do I have a red dragon attack or do I have the PCs long lost sister show up intent on summoning a red dragon?

... Can you rephrase this? Which is your version of the situation? I don't understand what you're saying and what point you're driving at.

Also, that I focus on things that D&D doesn't really have skills for.

Examples?

 

[shilsen]

I try every few games to have part of a "cake-walk" inserted in part of the adventure - something that lower-level characters would be challenged with, but the PCs at their level will mop up. A hermit besiged by 3 normal orcs for a bunch of 4rd level PCs, a bullying Ogre or two for a bunch of 6th levels, a horde of 2 or 3 hit dice ratmen for level 9, etc. I make it either at or 1 below their challenge rating, and give them a chance to flex their muscles and be heroic and show superiority. I'll also give them rewards like NPCs who remember and thank them months after a rescue.

I've found the above to work very well too. One of the most enjoyable combats the PCs in one of my Eberron groups had was when a small group of muggers jumped the first couple of them to enter a dark alley. Some of the others actually stood around and laid bets about how long the muggers would last against the others and yelled advice to the muggers and ribbed their comrades for taking too long. There was absolutely no sense of tension or danger, and that was actually a good thing, since that's something they encounter on a regular basis. This was a big change for them, allowed them to appreciate how skilled and special they are, and was generally a welcome relief. They loved it.

 

[Delemental]

Well, psychological stuff. I tend to like character interaction--intrigue, romance, backstory coming back to haunt the PC--in addition to hack n' slash.

Ah. I tend to like that kind of game too. That being said, whenever a DM askes me what kind of game I like, I usually answer with some variety of "I like a game where there's a lot of backstory and role-play, and characters have a life outside of the dungeon. That being said, I go to the trouble of writing all these numbers down on my character sheet for a reason." Perhaps your mentor is just trying to remind you to let the character's class abilities feature in your adventures, not just their personal quirks or weaknesses.

It may also be that you have a tendency to put a personal twist on every mission, something I see happen with DM's who have your apparent gaming style. Not every adventure needs to involve a 'psychological gut shot' - sometimes the BBEG isn't Character A's long-lost brother, sometimes the victims of the barbarian tribe's rampaging doesn't have to be Character B's home village, and sometimes you don't have to turn Character C's girlfriend into a ghoul. Perhaps by telling you to let the PC's be "more heroic", he's suggesting that you allow the characters to choose their actions in a situation without applying their own backgrounds as an external motivator.

Obviously, I don't know how you actually run your games, so you may do none of the things I mentioned. And others are correct in that it's the players who have to choose to be heroic; all you can do is give them the opportunity.

 

[Delemental]

... Can you rephrase this? Which is your version of the situation? I don't understand what you're saying and what point you're driving at.
Examples?

Obviously I'm not him, but I thing his version would be the one with the long-lost sister. Meaning that he tends to involve PC backgrounds, flaws, quirks, etc in every encounter. The criticism that his mentor is making might be that he doesn't allow the PC's to ever just beat up on the red dragon sans heartache and misery.

As far as the 'things D&D doesn't have skills for', I'd assume he means that he puts characters into more moral or ethical dilemmas that you can't really apply a Disable Device or Spellcraft check to. Nothing wrong with this, though in excess it kind of makes the character's class abilities pointless. Who cares if you have a attack bonus of +24 if all you're doing is trying to help orphans find homes after the orphanage was burned down by the red dragon your sister summoned.

 

[Rafael Ceurdepyr]

...Perhaps your mentor is just trying to remind you to let the character's class abilities feature in your adventures, not just their personal quirks or weaknesses.

It may also be that you have a tendency to put a personal twist on every mission, something I see happen with DM's who have your apparent gaming style.
Obviously, I don't know how you actually run your games, so you may do none of the things I mentioned. And others are correct in that it's the players who have to choose to be heroic; all you can do is give them the opportunity.

Actually, you do know how I run my games. That sounds pretty spot on.

To give an example of the two different styles, as I see them, it's like Spider-man and Superman. I like Spider-man. He's a hero. But he has conflicts. Angst. Personal problems. My mentor likes Superman. Definitely heroic. But not in the same style. My favorite author is Tim Powers, a writer who knows how to do terrible things to his characters. In the end, they do heroic things. But lots of personal anxiety going on there, times when they want to quit, times when their past catches up with them (or future, as the case may be). Those are the kinds of games I run.

I'm not convinced I don't give players a chance to be heroic. But it may not be the style D&D is intended to represent.

 

[Rafael Ceurdepyr]

Obviously I'm not him, but I thing his version would be the one with the long-lost sister. Meaning that he tends to involve PC backgrounds, flaws, quirks, etc in every encounter. The criticism that his mentor is making might be that he doesn't allow the PC's to ever just beat up on the red dragon sans heartache and misery.

As far as the 'things D&D doesn't have skills for', I'd assume he means that he puts characters into more moral or ethical dilemmas that you can't really apply a Disable Device or Spellcraft check to. Nothing wrong with this, though in excess it kind of makes the character's class abilities pointless. Who cares if you have a attack bonus of +24 if all you're doing is trying to help orphans find homes after the orphanage was burned down by the red dragon your sister summoned.

Wow, once again exactly right. Just what I was about to post.

 

[Rafael Ceurdepyr]

...Of course, I also try to use these NPCs to build ties to the game world for the PCs. Mentors, friends and those that need help. They also offer advice and information on what has transpired in the region since the PCs were last there. For the occasional NPC, I also use them as an example of what heroic behavior might look like. The cleric who sacrifices himself to turn aside a great evil, the rogue willing to take death defying risks to get where he needs to be, those sorts of things. I show my players how much fun can be achieved with heroics and then I hope they extrapolate that and show me even more outrageous stunts and heroism.

I like this idea of modeling heroic behavior using NPCs. Thanks!

 

[sniffles]

Actually, you do know how I run my games. That sounds pretty spot on.

To give an example of the two different styles, as I see them, it's like Spider-man and Superman. I like Spider-man. He's a hero. But he has conflicts. Angst. Personal problems. My mentor likes Superman. Definitely heroic. But not in the same style. My favorite author is Tim Powers, a writer who knows how to do terrible things to his characters. In the end, they do heroic things. But lots of personal anxiety going on there, times when they want to quit, times when their past catches up with them (or future, as the case may be). Those are the kinds of games I run.

I'm not convinced I don't give players a chance to be heroic. But it may not be the style D&D is intended to represent.

I play with a GM who likes your style. D&D is a little harder to use with that style of storytelling, IMHO. But what's more important than the system is: what do the players want? As a player I do like having a background and flaws for my characters, but it can get very frustrating to have to run up against those things every time my character tries to do something. Do your players enjoy moral dilemmas and have awful things happen to their characters, or do they just want to kill monsters and get treasure? Maybe just a bit more balance would do the trick. Don't lose your psychological emphasis, but give the PCs some chances to succeed occasionally without the angst, as Delemental suggested.

 

[Jdvn1]

Hm. Life isn't black and white, but it is sometimes. There doesn't always have to be a twist or dilemma.