Alter Self - suggested uses

[Iku Rex]

Iku Rex, thanks for the Sage advice. Was this from an FAQ or direct email correspondence between you and the Sage?

The later.

Once again, his advice has helped and confused me at the same time. I liked his example for swim speed, and had assumed it would be similar to flight. Then he gives examples of attack forms, despite the spell description's prohibition against them. Not sure what to make of this, but doubt my little gnome will be wanting to claw and bite very often.

The spell doesn't confer "attack forms". "Attack form" isn't a defined DnD term, but I assume it refers to a creature's attack routines. (Like claw/claw/bite.) "Claw damage 1d4" on the other hand, is a natural weapon. It's not much of a weapon (even a dagger is better), but it might get you a bonus to climb or something.

Glad to see he clarified that you can have more than one change in effect at a time (such as gills and wings, I would rather stick with a theme and take gills and fins, or wings and claws). I think he misunderstood your last question, or maybe I did at first. His response seems to contradict the "more than one change at a time" ruling, but I am understanding it to mean pick one form, with multiple effects if you like, and stick with it for the duration of the spell.

Nope. The reason I asked is that since the various changes available through alter self aren't dependant on taking a specific form, you could theoretically just go for the full package and take every possible "enhancement" in one go. He (wisely) ruled against that. So, if you want both gills and fins you have to cast alter self twice. (You can look as if you have both with one casting, but they - or one of them at least - won't actually work.)

 

[diaglo]

The spell doesn't confer "attack forms". "Attack form" isn't a defined DnD term, but I assume it refers to a creature's attack routines. (Like claw/claw/bite.) "Claw damage 1d4" on the other hand, is a natural weapon. It's not much of a weapon (even a dagger is better), but it might get you a bonus to climb or something.

the attack form in this case would be allowing you to get AoO with your claws. whereas normally unarmed you can't without the feat.

 

[JoeBlank]

Now I'm getting even more confused. Fun!

"Attack forms" could also mean special attacks, such as poison, rage, stampede, and others. I think a reasonable conclusion here is that Alter Self can be used to gain a simple attack in the 1d3 to 1d4 range, such as claws, bite, etc.

But on the more than one change at time I am still in need of further clarification, and will perhaps just have to ask my DM to rule. I interpret the following from the Sage:

"Q: Can you have more than one change in effect at the same time (like wings and gills)?

A: Yes."

to mean that with one casting of the spell you can have more than one change in effect. If not, he should have clarified by responding "Yes, but you would have to cast Alter Self multiple times to effect multiple changes."

So how does this jive with the related question and response:

"Q: Can you make more than one alteration (wings and gills and claws etc.) each time you cast the spell?

A: No, once change at a time."?

This could mean one change per casting of the spell, i.e. only one "effect" per casting, or it could mean you can only change to one form per casting of the spell, but that form can have more than one effect, as per the earlier response.

And what about effects that are singular in nature, such as only claws, but could certainly grant more than one game-effect, in this case a claw attack as well as a bonus to climb?

Thanks for the debate, it is very helpful on a spell I have not yet used. Keep up the good work. When all is said and done, I will probably direct my DM's attention to this thread and see how he rules.

 

[Iku Rex]

Now I'm getting even more confused. <snip>.

I asked if you could have more than one change in effect at one time. He said "yes". I asked if you could make more than one change per casting of the spell. He said "no". It seems crystal clear to me. There is no contradiction.

 

[JoeBlank]

I asked if you could have more than one change in effect at one time. He said "yes". I asked if you could make more than one change per casting of the spell. He said "no". It seems crystal clear to me. There is no contradiction.

It does not seem "crystal" clear to me, although your interpretation seems to be the most probable. One could also interpret "more than one change per casting" to mean growing wings, and then a few rounds later switching to gills, and then a few rounds later to claws, rinse, repeat.

Even if more than one change is not allowed in the sense that one can not keep changing throughout the duration of the spell, it still seems possible that one could have a single change that results in multiple effects for rules purposes. The example of a fish-man (or fish-gnome) having gills and webbed hands incorporates changes to two different body parts. However, a single change that adds claws could reasonably be used for attacks and for climbing. If balance is the issue, the gills and webbed hands do not seem significantly more powerful than the claws.

Note that I am not supporting either interpretation, I just want to get it right. But as I said before, for this specific character the DM's interpretation will be the right way, for his campaign.

For the record, I am still trying to think of other uses of the spell, to get the most out of it's versatility. So far, we have:

* Modes of movement, such as fly, swim, climb, burrow.
* Attacks, such as claw or bite.
* The ability to breath underwater with gills.
* Disguises (the +10 to disguise from the spell description).
* Possible circumstance bonuses to interaction-skills, such as intimidate, diplomacy, and gather info (by taking a form more likely to be accepted/feared by others).

One other thought to add, in case anyone is interested, I think I can solve the inability to hover problem by adding Featherfall when the character levels. If he really has to cast a metamagiced spell he just has to be sure he is up high enough that he will not hit the ground in one round, cast away, fall for a round, and then cast Featherfall. Or even plan ahead and cast Featherfall before failing to maintain flight speed.

 

[LokiDR]

If you look at the description of doppleganger, they change form by way of alter self. This means that anything you have ever imagined a doppleganer doing with it's shape changing you can do with alter self, at least for while.

One of my favorites is to change into a dog. Most people won't even bother to notice a stray to make the spot check against the disguise. Just look out for dog catchers

 

[JoeBlank]

The doppelganger connection was new on me, thanks LokiDR. However, I think you might be taking it too far. The relevant portion of the description from the SRD reads:

"Alter Self (Su): A doppelganger can assume the shape of any Small or Medium-size humanoid. This works like alter self as cast by an 18th-level sorcerer, but the doppelganger can remain in the chosen form indefinitely. It can assume a new form or return to its own as a standard action."

So even a doppelganger is limited to humanoid forms. The only exceptions, over and above just using the spell, that I see for doppelgangers is the option of small or medium-sized humanoid, and the ability to remain in the form indefinitely. I don't think my gnome could increase or decrease beyond his small-size status, but any humanoid form does open up some possibilities.

 

[LokiDR]

Oops, I missed that "humanoid" in the alter form description under doppleganer. Oh well, that character is gone.

But I am fairly sure you can change into a dog with alter self though.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Well then... based on the Doppleganger, you can probably shift your size category up or down one level (and since enlarge/reduse is level 1, and can go beyond one size level at higher levels, it's not overpowered).

As for new uses:

Environmental protection: fur for cold, blubber for cold water

Add two legs (everyone says arms): bonusus vs tripping, balance bonus, faster movement rate perhaps?

Since you can subtract limbs, removed arms and/or legs to bypass bindings/shackles

This might be a bit beyond... changing bone to something bendable... bonus to escape artist checks, squeezing through narrow openings.

Stopping wounding effects? Maybe not permanently, but for long enough to get some healing magic on it.

Modify lungs/vocal chords for increased volume (bardic music would have a larger radius suddenly)

Eyes in the back of your head, literally

Adding appendages... well, that belongs in the Book of Carnal Knowledge I think...

Create a marsupial pouch, good for smuggling small items.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head...

 

[Wippit Guud]

Wait, got a few more:

Octopus-like suction cups - bonus to prevent disarm, bonus to grapple

Change color to blend in - bonus to hide

Catlike padded feet - bonus to move silently

Nictitating membranes on the eyes - see better underwater

Large, flat feet - walk on snow or sand easier