Alter Self - suggested uses

[Lord Pendragon]

It does not seem "crystal" clear to me, although your interpretation seems to be the most probable. One could also interpret "more than one change per casting" to mean growing wings, and then a few rounds later switching to gills, and then a few rounds later to claws, rinse, repeat.

It's crystal clear to me too. One change per casting, no changing. If you want something better, pick up Polymorph Self.

Originally posted by LokiDR


If you look at the description of doppleganger, they change form by way of alter self. This means that anything you have ever imagined a doppleganer doing with it's shape changing you can do with alter self, at least for while.

One of my favorites is to change into a dog. Most people won't even bother to notice a stray to make the spot check against the disguise. Just look out for dog catchers

LokiDR, where in the world did you get this from? As far as I know, you can't change into a dog with Alter Self. You need Polymorph Self for that one...which is 4th-level instead of 2nd.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

It's crystal clear to me too. One change per casting, no changing. If you want something better, pick up Polymorph Self.

Not so sure. The sage also said

Q: Do you have to take the form of a specific creature or are the changes made to "your own" body?

A: You can just change your own body.

What does he mean here?

That your only option is to change your own body? or that you can take the form of a specific creature or change your own body?

The point being that if you can assume a specific creature, it's easy to take one that has wings, claw and tail for example. How do you then rule the 'extra' changes? Only one would be operational?

Originally posted by Lord Pendragon LokiDR, where in the world did you get this from? As far as I know, you can't change into a dog with Alter Self. You need Polymorph Self for that one...which is 4th-level instead of 2nd.

On that I agree... Maybe a 1st-2nd edition leftover but I thought Alter self was limited to humanoid forms, although the spell does not specify this.

And I thought I understood this spell. Now I'm confused too.

 

[MarauderX]

All in all I think the Alter self is pretty powerful for evil geniouses who want to spy on the party themselves vs. sending an incompetant henchman to do it for you. So having a sorcerer in a city to follow the party and it can change form from halfling to human if the party makes a spot check to notice it in the first place. Being hunted in such a way made my PCs pretty paranoid about anyone they meet and they started to realize they shouldn't take all combat spells all the time just so they can find the enemy in the first place.

As far as new uses, I would use it for camoflage to help out Hide checks.

(just realized my grammar looks like @$$... I hope everyone can understand what I was trying to say here before I fell asleep.)

 

[LokiDR]

LokiDR, where in the world did you get this from? As far as I know, you can't change into a dog with Alter Self. You need Polymorph Self for that one...which is 4th-level instead of 2nd.

You can give yourself fur. You can elongate your nose into a snout. You can change your arms into legs. You can decrease your size. Yep, spells dog to me.

You would not change your physical stats, heal, or gain any other benifits of polymorph. No natural attacks, natural armor, or anything else. This is a disguise. Just a disguise as a very different race.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You can give yourself fur. You can elongate your nose into a snout. You can change your arms into legs. You can decrease your size. Yep, spells dog to me.

You would not change your physical stats, heal, or gain any other benifits of polymorph. No natural attacks, natural armor, or anything else. This is a disguise. Just a disguise as a very different race.

So in other words you're pulling this out of the air. That's fine, but unless you've got something to back it up, I'm going to take it with a grain of salt. Polymorph Self specifically mentions that it gives a bonus to disguise checks if used for that purpose. Why in the world would any sane caster use it for that, if they could turn into a dog with a spell two levels lower?

Alter Self is an incredibly good spell because of its versatility. A mage can have it prepared and, at need: fly, breathe water, climb better, balance better, or any number of things. Not all at once, but any at need. Even once the mage has access to Fly, and Polymorph Self, he may want to keep a slot or scroll of Alter Self around, simply because of the versatility.

But it's not any more than it seems. It can't mimic spells such as Blindsight, Righteous Might, or Polymorph Self.

Originally posted by Tar-Edhel:

What does he mean here?

That your only option is to change your own body? or that you can take the form of a specific creature or change your own body?

The point being that if you can assume a specific creature, it's easy to take one that has wings, claw and tail for example. How do you then rule the 'extra' changes? Only one would be operational?

It means that you don't have to specify "merman" when you want gills, or "avariel" if you want wings. It means you don't have to specify "Bob, who lives next door to Nancy" if you want be a brown-haired human. You simply alter your body, giving it the one modification you desire.

 

[LokiDR]

So in other words you're pulling this out of the air. That's fine, but unless you've got something to back it up, I'm going to take it with a grain of salt. Polymorph Self specifically mentions that it gives a bonus to disguise checks if used for that purpose. Why in the world would any sane caster use it for that, if they could turn into a dog with a spell two levels lower?

Hmm, +10 disguise. Yep, looks like alter self. Oh, were you refering to Polymorph Self? Yes, that spell does that as well. A DM afraid of abuse of this spell may call for multiple castings, but there is NO reason it doesn't work.

Why would a person use polymorph for a disguise instead of polymorph? They shouldn't. Alter Self is much better suited to it, and change self is better still. Change self can mimic clothes, alter self doesn't - you would be a dog in clothing. Polymorph takes care of the equipment, but you may loose physical stats. Alter self doesn't heal you. Alter self doesn't grant natural armor. Alter self can't be used for multiple natural weapons at once. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Fair enough.

For me, there seems to be a sequential progression going on:

Change Self --> Alter Self --> Polymorph Self

Only Features --> Wings or Gills --> Full Body Transformation

But as always, YMMV.

 

[JoeBlank]

Change self can mimic clothes, alter self doesn't - you would be a dog in clothing.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, unless you are getting the spells mixed up. From the Alter Self description, several posts above, "The character can alter the character's appearance and form-including clothing and equipment-to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between" (emphasis added).

Your reasoning that Alter Self could allow a change into a dog is a stretch, maybe with multiple castings, as you have said. Still, the description says "to appear tall, shorter, thin, fat, or in between." I don't find "dog-shaped" to be in between any of those.

Still, I am finally learning what a versatile spell this can be. And if I have not said so before, I am not looking to power-game, but I do want to get the most use possible out of the spell. It fits the character, and this is my first time playing a sorcerer. Starting at 4th level, he gets only one 2d level spell known, so I want to be able to use it as often as possible.

 

[JoeBlank]

As for new uses: [SNIP]

Fan-freaking-tastic! Now that is some creative stuff, and exactly what I was looking for. Not that I don't appreciate the debate on the limits of the spell, as that has helped me to understand it better.

Wippit Guud, my thanks to you. These contributions have been printed and will be taken with me for my game Sunday. Actually, I'll probably print and take the whole thread, but these will be highlighted. Nice work.

 

[Wippit Guud]

I have my moments