Alter Self

[FANGO]

Actually, from a scientific POV, infravision would work....ever heard of FLIR? It's what the army uses for night missions, they put it on a lot of helicopters (it's made it's way into police choppers too), and sometimes in goggles, and it lets you see infrared. It just like normal vision, except not in color and a little blurry. I'm sure that if they can put it into a machine like that, that nature could find a way to come up with something similar (and, in fact, there are animals that can see into the ultraviolet, so this suggests that it would be possible to see into infrared, too...I don't have any examples, but I'm sure there are some animals that can see a little into the infrared as well). The matter of 'everything being white' also doesn't make much sense, cause the eyes would be calibrated such that they don't absorb too much energy (in fact, in our own eyes, this very same thing happens: the sensors that sense light are actually facing backwards and recieve the light after it bounces off of the back of our retina, after going through a lot of that aqueous whatever its called and through other stuff on the retina...this is done in order to dull the intensity of the light so our eyes don't get overexposed), and there's such a thing as irises that also help to control these sorts of things. And as for cooling....the body has a very sophisticated liquid cooling system, it's called blood ;-) ...and if you happen to be referring to sean k reynolds' rant about infravision...the guy is a wacko and assumes far too much, his arguments hold very little water.

The main reason they got rid of infravision was that it was confusing and led to things that people didn't want it to lead to. Some DMs would interpret it as having vision in the infrared, and some would interpret it just as 3e darkvision is interpreted. Also, it allowed people to see invisible things, or to track people who had been in the area in the past few minutes by looking at the heat signatures they left on things that they touched. This was all very confusing and every group had a different way of looking at it, so they just went with darkvision (i suspect also that part of the motivation was that someone wanted to play around with the solarizing filter in photoshop...if you know anything about that program or about photography in general, look at the picture of the mind flayer in the DMG section on darkvision and you'll see what I mean).

And referring to the post about dwarves being natural and having darkvision.....I was looking for real world examples of darkvision...I think someone has been playing a little too much AD&D ;-)

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Well...

..if you want to interprete the entries for Darkvision, it says nowhere that it is a function of the eyes. It only says that respectable creatures "can see in the dark for up to XX feet" and can "see clearly with no light at all". Maybe it´s some other sense that ties directly into the visual cortex of the creature´s brain...who knows

 

[Volefisk]

Re: Well...

..if you want to interprete the entries for Darkvision, it says nowhere that it is a function of the eyes. It only says that respectable creatures "can see in the dark for up to XX feet" and can "see clearly with no light at all". Maybe it´s some other sense that ties directly into the visual cortex of the creature´s brain...who knows

Better yet, it is the ability to 'anticipate and make provision for future events' while in the dark. The subject doesn't see anything at all, they just instinctually know where things are going to be a split second into the future even when they can't see!!

<volefisk>

 

[The_lone_gunman]

I was looking at the Sean Reynolds list from above and it lists this about alter self:

What else is possible? [I suggested Scent, Low-light vision, Darkvision or Blindsightis]

The entire sample list shown above is right out. You could, however, give yourself fins, fur, fangs, or claws, or a tail.



My question is what does "right out" mean? Does that mean that darkvision is not allowed? That is what I am inferring......


TLG

 

[Iku Rex]

My question is what does "right out" mean? Does that mean that darkvision is not allowed?

Yes.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There are two types of Infrared Vision Systems.
One really is able to detect heat sources, which means it has to be fine temperated and so on.
And the other uses Infrared Lamps to "light up" the scene, and uses that instead of "normal" light. The second one has the great advantage that normally, you just can`t see this light. (And that it is easier to use)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[med stud]

From a scientific PoV, Infravision doesn't work. There's a lot more infrared energy than light energy about, so all you'd see if a blinding white background. Plus, you have to find a way to keep your eyeballs cool, etc.

I think this is why they replaced Infravision with Darkvision. They never explained how Darkvision works, but I don't think its very natural (do it however you want in your campaign though).

PS Does anyone know how to remain logged in for more than one post at a time?

There are snakes who can use Infra red vision, so it is very much possible. See FANGOs post for the rest.

 

[FANGO]

Well I've never been a huge fan of sean k reynolds anyway....but I really don't see any problem with allowing low-light vision through alter self. I suppose the reason is because it's a little too complex for someone to know how to change their body in that way, but I figure if polymorph self can do it, and if they can give themselves gills (which are fairly complex in their own right), that that shouldn't be a limiting factor. Also, whereas the other things in the list may be overpowering for alter self (darkvision, blindsight, scent), low-light vision is such a minimal change that I would be inclined to allow it, especially if the player could come up with a clever explanation of what they're doing, how they figured out about it, etc.

And referring to the different types of infrared systems....the FLIR (that stands for Forward-Looking Infrared, by the way) systems used in the army/police use the first method, where they detect heat, rather than the second method of using an IR heat lamp. I think the first method is far superior, too, because as long as your instrument is sensitive enough you can detect very tiny changes in heat, and the image ends up looking very similar to what you would see with normal vision (whereas the heat lamp thing not only gives away your position with the little red light, but also only works to a certain range and doesn't let you se heat signatures or people behind bushes or anything...)

I suppose that snakes would be a good example of infrared viewing systems, although I was trying to think of something that used it's eyes to see into the infrared (and if I recall correctly snakes have specialized pits or something on their head to detect IR, and it's fairly different from vision...though I may just be making stuff up here).

 

[med stud]

I suppose that snakes would be a good example of infrared viewing systems, although I was trying to think of something that used it's eyes to see into the infrared (and if I recall correctly snakes have specialized pits or something on their head to detect IR, and it's fairly different from vision...though I may just be making stuff up here).

I think an organ can qualify for "eyes" as long as it is sensitive for lightwaves, and the snake organs are that. But sure, they doesnt look like eyes, and probably work a bit different.

 

[rhammer2]

Snakes, specifically vipers, have heat sensors. They can feel heat and use it to target with, they do not see IR.

I think an organ can qualify for "eyes" as long as it is sensitive for lightwaves, and the snake organs are that. But sure, they doesnt look like eyes, and probably work a bit different.