D&D 5E Alternate Initiative Rules

[GlassJaw]

I've seen a lot of Initiative systems from D&D and other games. All have their pros and cons of course but I've come to the realization that it's a fool's errand to come up with something that provides better gameplay than d20 + Dex. I certainly don't think it's the "best" by any means but it checks enough of the "good enough" boxes and gets the job done.

And speed factor systems are the work of the devil.

 

[Nebulous]

I've seen a lot of Initiative systems from D&D and other games. All have their pros and cons of course but I've come to the realization that it's a fool's errand to come up with something that provides better gameplay than d20 + Dex. I certainly don't think it's the "best" by any means but it checks enough of the "good enough" boxes and gets the job done.

And speed factor systems are the work of the devil.

It's functional but i'm so darn bored of it. If it could have a tiny bit of strategy in the initiative order i would like it more. The Fast/Slow tier system seems like it could do that without bogging anything down in extra rolls. I haven't tried enough alternate systems to be any kind of judge. I used a card based system the past three years I really liked though.

 

[Anoth]

What drives me crazy is when I play with a group. The fighter says, “I am opening the door and going to rush in and attack”. So the fighter opens the door and rushes in. There is even a marching order of what order the group will rush in. The Dm says roll initiative and then like the last person who said he was going to enter the room moves and attacks first. So I stopped using individual initiative for that reason. I let the players choose their order of initiative between them with group initiative

 

[Anoth]

I also really miss how a clash worked on a tied initiative in older editions

 

[DND_Reborn]

What drives me crazy is when I play with a group. The fighter says, “I am opening the door and going to rush in and attack”. So the fighter opens the door and rushes in. There is even a marching order of what order the group will rush in. The Dm says roll initiative and then like the last person who said he was going to enter the room moves and attacks first. So I stopped using individual initiative for that reason. I let the players choose their order of initiative between them with group initiative

Yeah, situations like that can be annoying but a Ready action handles it well enough IMO.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, I've been thinking about the fast/slow ideas and can't get on board with it. I am certain people who use such systems have resolved my concerns, but here they are:

1. You roll every round. Not a huge deal, but I know a lot of groups don't like that. Also, since sometimes you will take only your action or move, and then other times you need to do both. This means one round you are on fast and the next slow.

2. The same problem with monsters. Some will need to move during their turn, others are already engaged so won't need to move. This means you basically need to roll two initiatives for monsters, a "slow" and a "fast" count, since most turns they will be mixed.

3. You can take the dice "out of the equation", but then it is basically up to the DM/players and theater of mind to decide who goes when. Sure, that can work but I can see it leading to issues.

4. For tables that do it by class, that is really off IMO. Having one class go before another all the time doesn't make much sense to me. For instance, I imagine many spells to be faster than bigger weapons. Still, if it works for you, that's all that matters.

I guess people who use such systems can comment and let me know your thoughts.

 

[Nebulous]

So, I've been thinking about the fast/slow ideas and can't get on board with it. I am certain people who use such systems have resolved my concerns, but here they are:

1. You roll every round. Not a huge deal, but I know a lot of groups don't like that. Also, since sometimes you will take only your action or move, and then other times you need to do both. This means one round you are on fast and the next slow.

2. The same problem with monsters. Some will need to move during their turn, others are already engaged so won't need to move. This means you basically need to roll two initiatives for monsters, a "slow" and a "fast" count, since most turns they will be mixed.

3. You can take the dice "out of the equation", but then it is basically up to the DM/players and theater of mind to decide who goes when. Sure, that can work but I can see it leading to issues.

4. For tables that do it by class, that is really off IMO. Having one class go before another all the time doesn't make much sense to me. For instance, I imagine many spells to be faster than bigger weapons. Still, if it works for you, that's all that matters.

I guess people who use such systems can comment and let me know your thoughts.

I haven't used the system yet so I can only theoretically comment.

1. Also, since sometimes you will take only your action or move, and then other times you need to do both. This means one round you are on fast and the next slow.

Right, if you just attack Round one you act Fast, or if you just move. If you need to move and attack or double move, you go last in the Slow phase. Disengage and move away would be in the Slow phase too.

2. The same problem with monsters. Some will need to move during their turn, others are already engaged so won't need to move. This means you basically need to roll two initiatives for monsters, a "slow" and a "fast" count, since most turns they will be mixed.

Not sure what you mean by rolling two initiatives.

Oh, wait, I think I see what you mean. The PCs and Monsters are moving at different times instead of "All PCs" then "All Monsters"

I think the group roll each round just has a chance to swap this, so Monsters have a chance to go first Fast and Slow phase and not always the PCs.

1. Fast turn phase
   1. Player characters taking a fast turn act.
   2. Monsters taking a fast turn act.
2. Slow turn phase
   1. Player characters taking a slow turn act.
   2. Monsters taking a slow turn act.

What might be problematic in a big fight is remembering which monsters took one action or two actions. Having miniatures would help with this. I would like to hear how people who use this actually do in larger battles with lots of moving parts.

3. You can take the dice "out of the equation", but then it is basically up to the DM/players and theater of mind to decide who goes when. Sure, that can work but I can see it leading to issues.

Yeah, I guess that's how it works? Maybe there's an orderly way to do, like clockwise? I don't know what will happen if everyone blurts out an action at once. Maybe within the context of each SCENE it makes sense who would have say in the first action. I don't know.

4. For tables that do it by class, that is really off IMO. Having one class go before another all the time doesn't make much sense to me. For instance, I imagine many spells to be faster than bigger weapons. Still, if it works for you, that's all that matters.

That seems off to me as well and I don't think I would implement something like that.

 

[tetrasodium]

a few people have mentioned speed tiers & fast slow in the dmg but I'm not finding them there. can anyone point me towards it?
edit found it on dmg270

 

[tetrasodium]

I've seen a lot of Initiative systems from D&D and other games. All have their pros and cons of course but I've come to the realization that it's a fool's errand to come up with something that provides better gameplay than d20 + Dex. I certainly don't think it's the "best" by any means but it checks enough of the "good enough" boxes and gets the job done.

And speed factor systems are the work of the devil.

Speed factor systems indeed put too much work on the gm & get even worse if the gm needs to preplan what every npc will be doing... but d20+dex has some problems despite being functional.

• Dex is already punching pretty high above everything but charisma. Switching it to a different stat helps elevate that stat somewhat.
• In the past it was harder for rogues to get backstab/sneak attack if the weren't high on the initiative order, now they pretty much just need to work with anyone & are actually going to have a more difficult time if they are going before everyone else.
• Yes a d20 rather than a d12 or unspent hit die will have a lower chance of people getting the same initiative count, but there are plenty of ways to trivially handle those & it's hardly a hiccup when it happens.
• Using a hit die+int will favor martial classes by hit die size & reward those who don't dump int like EK/AT/artificer types. Wizard/artificer with smaller hit dies than barbarian/pally/fighter will find their large int bonus more relevant for purposes of immediate battlefield changing stuff but the hit die size will make sure that they are not always miles ahead of the party.
• If the hit die+int is the largest unspent hit die, you add some extra risk to falling off a cliff, resting an hour, & being back to 100% as if nothing happened because then your going to be on the naughty word end of what might as well be surprise rounds & it adds up when none of the baddies can be taken out or hamstrung before they take their first turn (especially if those are difficult baddies)even if it's not crippling.

 

[Iry]

Maybe a combination of Demon Lord and Three Tier?

Fast - Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue.
Slow - Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard.

• Fast turn phase
  1. Player characters taking a fast turn act.
  2. Monsters taking a fast turn act.
• Slow turn phase
  1. Player characters taking a slow turn act.
  2. Monsters taking a slow turn act.

Rule 1: Players with the same speed determine for themselves who goes first.
Rule 2: Players always go first unless they are surprised.
Rule 3: The DM determines if a monster is Slow or Fast.

Thats it. Smooth as butter.