Alternate (low) magic systems

[reason]

insert a third party

Part of the non-mysteriousness of magic in D&D comes from its reliability and repeatability. It's pretty scientific. You can get around that by inserting third parties - i.e. every individual use of a magic feat has to be bargained for from a third party of some sort. Spirits, demons, otherworlders, capricious forestdwellers, etc. That allows you to a) have magic that can do awesome things on individual occasions, and b) just because you do it once doesn't mean you can do it again, c) lots of roleplaying opportunities.

One of my settings has magic stemming from the restless spirits of the dead, blocked from going to afterlife. They're everywhere, and can do some powerful things when roused en masse, but are hard to deal with because they no longer think rationally and can be dangerous to the living.

Reason

 

[Steverooo]

Here're my ideas:

1) Agree with the spell lists (or chains). Firefinger must come before Burning Hands, which must come before Fireball. This means Wizards and Sorcerers must specialize. (Gandalf specialized in fire magics!)

2) No spell, nor magic item, can give you a skill boost of more than Character Level+3. Jump, for instance, can only give you a +4 bonus, at first level (the same as a maxed out Class skill). This makes skill as powerful as magic, but magic still useful, as it can allow you to use a skill you don't have.

3) Since skill is so much more important, all classes need a boost in skill points (yes, even the Rogues)! Two is the minimum, IMHO. Also, you might want to consider a system of automatic Ranks/Class Level for each class (one Rank/Class Level? 1/2?)

4) Magic can't do what skill can't - In LotR, you almost never see a character doing things with magic that they couldn't, without it. No Teleport, no Dimension Door, etc. Gandalf (with Narya, the Ring of Fire) does cast some fire spells in The Hobbit, when the Dwarves and Hobbits are captured by the mountain orcs, use Ventriloquism and perhaps Suggestion on the trolls, and certainly some powerful fire magic on the werewolves outside the elven door into Khazad-Dum, in Hollin, but then he is (like) 60th level. Most of the spells are low level (Light after the door closes, Hold Portal against the Balrog, and what? Shatter on the bridge?)

In most cases, the things spells were used for could have been done normally... Starting fires, throwing your voice, making suggestions, hurling alchemist's fire, lighting a torch, spiking a door, and breaking down a bridge. If you want a LotR-like campaign, look at magic in the same way, and eliminate spells like Invisibility, Lightning Bolt, Fly, Teleport, etc. (Remember, even Gandalf was trapped atop the tower of Orthanc, until a giant eagle rescued him)!

5) Give back for what you take away - You disallow Rangers, etc., spells? (Aragorn sang over the broken blade of the Morgul knife, while Frodo lay dying from it - what do you think he was doing?) If so, then you need to give the PCs something back... Extraordinary abilities are the best way to go, here...

Almost EVERYONE in LotR and The Hobbit spoke with SOMETHING odd! Thorin spoke with ravens. Gimli understood "the night speech of rocks and plants" around Kheled-Zaram, and knew the quality of stone at Helm's Deep. Gandalf could speak with the giant eagles. Even Pippin, after leaving the marshes near Bree, mentions to Aragorn that birds' memories aren't long enough to know who built the ruins in Eriador. Aragorn never "shows" us, on the books, but the men of Bree said that ALL Rangers could speak with animals. Hence, Speak with Animals in (A)D&D. Legolas, at Fangorn Forest and Helm's Deep, fells that he could learn to speak Huorn. The Silmarillion also mentions that Elves go around "waking things up" (Awaken).

So, look at the spell lists... Rangers and Paladins have Cure? Allow the Heal skill to do that. (Personally, I'd allow Paladins to keep Lay on Hands and Remove Disease... YMMV). Rangers can Pass Without Trace? Give it to them as an Ex. Ability, from fourth level on. Same with the other spells. Endure Elements? From 4+, they are immune to natural heat/cold. Calm/Charm Animals? Allow it to be done with Wild Empathy. Snare? They can set them with Survival skill. Etc., etc.!

6) Item Creation - This one's tougher... Galadriel and her maidens managed to create Cloaks of Elvenkind for the entire Fellowship! Magical swords were quite common (two from Gondolin, in the Trolls' cave, in The Hobbit, Sting, who knows how many, in the barrow mounds, the morgul blades carried by the nine, Aragorn's sword... and I'm sure the Elves had many more, which were never mentioned). Magical armor is, to the best of my knowledge, never mentioned. Rings are very, very rare. Wands are never mentioned, but staves and rods are common, among the wizards. Wizards are rare, in LotR, but not so much, earlier in ME (Middle Earth). The Witch-King of Angmar, etc.

So, maybe go back to the 1e version, where Enchant an Item was a spell that you had to be (IIRC) 11th level to cast? Or make Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric/Druid 11 a prerequisite for the Craft Wondrous Items Feat? Actually, Character Level 11 and spellcasting ability might work just as well.

Scrolls of spells do not seem to exist in ME. Potions do, although they are apparently rarer. Gandalf had some Elven Miruvor (Elixir of Endurance), and the orcs had some sort of fiery, nasty stuff to keep the prisoners running. To make it a bit tougher, you might want to add "brewing time", and tie potion making to Alchemy and/or Profession (Herbalist), requiring 2x as many Ranks as the spell to be put into the potion (10 Ranks for a fifth level spell, etc).

Just some ideas...

 

[Afrodyte]

1) Agree with the spell lists (or chains). Firefinger must come before Burning Hands, which must come before Fireball. This means Wizards and Sorcerers must specialize. (Gandalf specialized in fire magics!)

I agree as well. The spell chain idea is marvellous. As a matter of fact, it might be neat to use this for a normal-magic D&D game.

2) No spell, nor magic item, can give you a skill boost of more than Character Level+3. Jump, for instance, can only give you a +4 bonus, at first level (the same as a maxed out Class skill). This makes skill as powerful as magic, but magic still useful, as it can allow you to use a skill you don't have.

I like this too. From this and what you post below, it seems that magic should augment normal activities instead of replace them. More on this later.

3) Since skill is so much more important, all classes need a boost in skill points (yes, even the Rogues)! Two is the minimum, IMHO. Also, you might want to consider a system of automatic Ranks/Class Level for each class (one Rank/Class Level? 1/2?)

I think boosting skill points is OK, but I also thing that redoing the class/cross-class skill system would be even better. An idea I've thought of and seen bantered about is removing the skill rank maximum on cross-class skills, making it possible to buy them up as high as class skills, although you pay more in points.

Also, since skills would dominate as opposed to magic, redoing the class skills for the various classes might work to your advantage as well.

5) Give back for what you take away - You disallow Rangers, etc., spells? (Aragorn sang over the broken blade of the Morgul knife, while Frodo lay dying from it - what do you think he was doing?) If so, then you need to give the PCs something back... Extraordinary abilities are the best way to go, here

Almost EVERYONE in LotR and The Hobbit spoke with SOMETHING odd! Thorin spoke with ravens. Gimli understood "the night speech of rocks and plants" around Kheled-Zaram, and knew the quality of stone at Helm's Deep. Gandalf could speak with the giant eagles. Even Pippin, after leaving the marshes near Bree, mentions to Aragorn that birds' memories aren't long enough to know who built the ruins in Eriador. Aragorn never "shows" us, on the books, but the men of Bree said that ALL Rangers could speak with animals. Hence, Speak with Animals in (A)D&D. Legolas, at Fangorn Forest and Helm's Deep, fells that he could learn to speak Huorn. The Silmarillion also mentions that Elves go around "waking things up" (Awaken).

I wouldn't necessarily use LotR as the guidestick, but I see your point. It would depend on the setting, of course, but I think that having some spells turn into special abilities would be neat. Many of the Ranger/Paladin spells seem as though they'd work better that way anyway. Perhaps, if you wish to encourage skill use, you can have skill and feat prerequisites for certain abilities.

So, look at the spell lists... Rangers and Paladins have Cure? Allow the Heal skill to do that. (Personally, I'd allow Paladins to keep Lay on Hands and Remove Disease... YMMV). Rangers can Pass Without Trace? Give it to them as an Ex. Ability, from fourth level on. Same with the other spells. Endure Elements? From 4+, they are immune to natural heat/cold. Calm/Charm Animals? Allow it to be done with Wild Empathy. Snare? They can set them with Survival skill. Etc., etc.!

I think the best thing to do, since the focus would shift from magic to skills and (possibly) feats, is to go through the spell list and see what can be replicated with skills and what can't. I don't mean as the d20 rules currently stand, but what your own logic would tell you. Cure seems related to Heal. Why not let it give a bonus to Heal checks.

I also agree that vulgar displays of power should be right out. At least, for all except the most powerful of spellcasters (say, somewhere around epic level?)

6) Item Creation - This one's tougher... Galadriel and her maidens managed to create Cloaks of Elvenkind for the entire Fellowship! Magical swords were quite common (two from Gondolin, in the Trolls' cave, in The Hobbit, Sting, who knows how many, in the barrow mounds, the morgul blades carried by the nine, Aragorn's sword... and I'm sure the Elves had many more, which were never mentioned). Magical armor is, to the best of my knowledge, never mentioned. Rings are very, very rare. Wands are never mentioned, but staves and rods are common, among the wizards. Wizards are rare, in LotR, but not so much, earlier in ME (Middle Earth). The Witch-King of Angmar, etc.

So, maybe go back to the 1e version, where Enchant an Item was a spell that you had to be (IIRC) 11th level to cast? Or make Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric/Druid 11 a prerequisite for the Craft Wondrous Items Feat? Actually, Character Level 11 and spellcasting ability might work just as well.

I understand where you are coming from, but I think that an even better way to go about it, in lieu of or conjunction with a feat, would be Craft checks (very high DCs, of course, perhaps with extended rolls). While a spellcaster could create more potent items, I think that making it possible for someone of exceptional skill to make minor magical items can work too.

If you want to prevent the "magic item factory" type of thing that can happen in high magic settings, I can see two possibilities. The first is to require the caster to craft the items themselves. So, if you want a magic sword, you'll need Craft (Weaponsmith) at X ranks or more. The other is to require the caster to be present for the making of the base item, rather than just purchasing it. In this case, the caster who wants a magic sword would have to be there as it is forged, enchanting it the whole time.

Scrolls of spells do not seem to exist in ME. Potions do, although they are apparently rarer. Gandalf had some Elven Miruvor (Elixir of Endurance), and the orcs had some sort of fiery, nasty stuff to keep the prisoners running. To make it a bit tougher, you might want to add "brewing time", and tie potion making to Alchemy and/or Profession (Herbalist), requiring 2x as many Ranks as the spell to be put into the potion (10 Ranks for a fifth level spell, etc).

For potions, I'd say Alchemy. I think Profession wouldn't quite cut it. I would give a synergy bonus, though.

Although scrolls didn't exist in Middle Earth, I am thinking that they could still be used for a non-LotR game. I just think they wouldn't be lying around waiting for the intrepid PCs to find them. They also wouldn't be for sale in some shop. As a result, keeping the Use Magic Device skill would seem problematic. I'd tie using magic items (besides weapon, armor, and tools that have obvious non-magical uses) to Spellcraft (with Knowledge (arcana) giving a synergy bonus). Perhaps to use a scroll requires a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + spell's level, or something like that) to learn the spell. If you already know it, I'd probably give bonuses, or perhaps let the player cast it automatically. If you aren't the right level, I can see applying penalties. If you go with the spell tree idea, if you aren't familiar with that particular tree, I can see penalties applying there as well. Unfortunately, I can't think of what would grant a bonus. Maybe if you already know a higher-level version of the spell, or if your school is the same as that on the scroll? Then when you cast, perhaps some roll to see if it backfires or something.

 

[Paka]

There s a good magic system, just like the one you speak of in the Midnight setting, with a nice class and spell list to go along with it.

If you really want to see how a low magic class can be set up, give it a shot.

 

[A'koss]

I see a lot of ideas here I've tried myself in the past. I've got a new homebrew cooking myself and I've decided to cook up a whole new set of low magic rules for our game. It's the biggest sweeping change I've ever made to the game but it I've got the time now and it's certainly an interesting experience finding out what works and what doesn't.

1. Spells: I've created Path Magic and Low Magic variants in the past but this time I really wanted to rework the spell list to make it more fun and to really fit into the flavor of our quasi-Norse setting. Teleportation, spell-based Flight, true Invisibility (apart from a couple magic items) and generally any spell above 6th level is out... though the way spells are re-geared it's not quite so cut-and-dry. Basically, spells that are potentially "setting destroying" get the axe or are modified significantly and there are more spells geared towards more everyday problems (working stone, farming, etc). Certain other kinds of spells require time, certain rituals (think Norse Platform and Circle Magic) and possilbly certain locations or times to cast - many divinations for example. Some are more dangerous to cast - spells dealing with the dead and astral projection for example... Combat magic now requires some kind of attack roll (touch attack or real attack) to succeed or to gain maximum effect which I think is a neat change. Though generally lessened in power, magic always has some effect, even if a target makes his save or a spell resistance check. There are no "Save for None" spells anymore. Spell Resistance is only partial resistance, not immunity, though there are indeed monsters with various magical immunities.

2. HPs and Healing: It's a real rough and tumble world so I wanted characters who could last in a fight but without heavy reliance on healing magic. At the same time, I wanted to fix the huge disparity between character HPs at high levels and generally make high level play more... uh, playable. You get your Con score in HPs at 1st level and a certain number of HPs (fairly high) based on your Class but no Con bonus per level. Your Con score HPs represents your toughness and your Class HPs your skill. At higher levels this keeps the range of HPs between the characters a little more managable so that if you want to challenge your most powerful character, your weakest isn't 1 round roadkill.

As far as healing goes your Class HPs heal at a rate per hour instead of per day as in core 3e. If you are wounded into your Con HPs, those heal at a rate per day and you will suffer some loss in combat ability while into those HPs. The healing skill is quite useful for everyone to take now as healing magic is quite weak. Magical healing can help you accellerate healing, grant you temporary HPs and in some rare instances transfer HPs. If you reach 0 HPs you are dead...ish. You can be magically revived so long as your body hasn't reached -Con HPs, after which you are truly dead (requiring a personal petition, in Hel, to try and secure the deceased's release [read: good luck]).

3. Classes: I've expanded upon the idea in d20 Modern of Talents so that each class has it's own list of class-specific abilities (in essence, feats). With fewer magic items, you rely more on your own abilities to see you through. A high level fighter without any magic is still a viable adventuring character in the campaign.

4. Skills: Skills are important and I'm considering re-working a few things. First, there are no cross-class skills per se but there are skills that require a significant amount of time to learn and therefore only generally viable for those who can dedicate a significant amount of time to them. Learning new languages, Craft, Profession for example.

5. Magic Items: It is possible to craft the equivalent of a potion or scroll (runestones) in the campaign, but only those with some divine essence can create a true, permanent magic item. Since the setting is post-Ragnarok, there are items to be won, found or granted, but they are all quite rare and highly prized. It is possible though to temporarily enchant items though to see you through a tough battle. At high levels though everyone will have at least a couple magic items, but nowhere near the christmas tree ornamentation we see now. There is definitely a greater reliance on craftsmanship and high quality materials for your gear.


A'koss.

 

[Blackwind]

Wow! I'm really impressed with some of the ideas floating around here. Here's what I'm currently considering using:

1. Stagger the spell progressions for the spellcasting classes. Thus a Wiz20 would be able to cast two 5th level spells/day (+ bonus spells) just like a normal Wiz10. This is about the magic level I'm going for. This way by the time a character can cast 9th level spells, they'll be well into epic levels and approaching demigod status.

But instead of having casters only gain new spells once every two levels, I'm going to spread out the progression. Here would be the first 10 levels of a wizard's spells/day:

1. 3/1
2. 4/1
3. 4/2
4. 4/2
5. 4/2/1
6. 4/3/1
7. 4/3/2
8. 4/3/2
9. 4/3/2/1
10. 4/3/3/1

2. Probably use the same 1/2 staggering for other spellcasting classes, including bard, paladin, and ranger. Paladin and ranger may still end up being prestige instead of core classes.

3. Bolster all magic-using classes by bumping certain abilities. Wizards, for example, could probably use a d6 hit die, 2 more skill points per level, a slightly better weapon selection (including swords, which are used by wizards in all great fantasy literature), and a slightly better attack progression. Maybe some bonus feats too. That's just tentative of course. I would make adjustments for each class and then playtest them until balanced.

4. Of course I'll have to prune the spell lists. Some spells would just ruin the flavor of the game - raise dead and resurrection come to mind, as do many more inoccuous spells, like fly.

5. I love the idea of having spell chains. Thanks for the great concept!

6. Item creation feats: increase the requisite caster level for all of them (probably x2). Also require the enchanter to craft the item him/herself, and have a certain number of Craft ranks to get the item creation feat. I like the idea of a wizard sitting in his mountain-top tower for weeks on end hammering away at the next Glamdring or Narsil.

The brew potion feat will require ranks in Alchemy caster level 6th, for example. I may still give Wizards the Scribe Scroll feat for free, but probably at 4th level.

Needless to say, every magic item in the game should be unique.

7. Making a few other changes to the spellcasting classes. Sorcerors now get their magical abilities from their spirit guides, often spirits of dead ancestors who had magical abilities. These spirit guides can communicate with them in dreams, visions, etc.

I'm renaming the Cleric class the Mystic, mostly to reflect that not all priests of a deity have divine magical powers - only those that cultivate a close relationship with the deity through meditation, prayer, devotion, etc. Religion in my campaign is also more realistic than D&D religion (I happen to be a Religious Studies major).

The Druid class is going to be replaced by the Shaman, who will work with a particular totem (i.e. Jaguar Shaman, Cave Bear Shaman, etc) as well as other nature spirits. I need to take a second look at the OA shaman before I go making a whole new class, though. Druid is going to be a PrC in my game - in the ancient Celtic lands, druidic training could take up to 20 years and most druids were first bards, or kings, etc. The Druids in my game are a powerful religious order/PrC that holds sway only in a particular area.

8. I'm still going to incorporate some of the new skills and feats that I designed, including the various meditation feats (you perform a certain type of meditation for a certain amount of time every morning and gain minor bonuses). Divination is now a skill.

I do like Rune Magic and Gem Magic from FR.

9. Still searching for the right proportions as far as the economic system goes. Right now I'm thinking about cutting PC wealth in half and making it 5 times more expensive to create magic items. I may end up reducing PC wealth even further than that.

Thanks for all the great ideas... and I bet there are still more out there! Bring it on!

 

[barsoomcore]

It's probably not your kettle of fish, but Barsoom uses a pretty wacky magic system. You can read about it here.

Magic isn't much fun on Barsoom, nor is it very balanced, but it's not meant to be. It's meant to be scary and bad and make PCs cry.

 

[Golem2176]

The Druid class is going to be replaced by the Shaman, who will work with a particular totem (i.e. Jaguar Shaman, Cave Bear Shaman, etc) as well as other nature spirits. I need to take a second look at the OA shaman before I go making a whole new class, though. Druid is going to be a PrC in my game - in the ancient Celtic lands, druidic training could take up to 20 years and most druids were first bards, or kings, etc. The Druids in my game are a powerful religious order/PrC that holds sway only in a particular area.

If you decide to revamp the Druid class into your own custom Shaman class I suggest that you use the Pastlife Form from the Incarnate (from Relics & Rituals) as one of the Shaman's abilities. If you do not own it post back and let me know, I'll sum it up for you.

 

[DiFier]

I think that the reason the idea of forced multiclassing for spellcasters is so popular is that it has some balance with other charachters a wiz5 fighter5 is a little less powerful than a fighter 10 or a wizard 10 but he is way more powerful than a nerfed 10th level wizard that can only cast 1 or 2 3rd level spells. just nerfing spellcasters will get you into balance issues.

So what is fair to give a wizard who only has 1/2 caster level progression? higher HP? more class skills and skill points? more feats? how many and at what level? better class weapon proficiencies? a better BAB? better saves? how much?

too much and spell casters are too powerful not at spellcasting but compared to the other classes. too little and spell casters will suck.

so unless you are able to give spell casters bonuses that will balance them after you have nerfed their spell casting abilities. I think that forced multiclassing is a good idea.

 

[Altalazar]

Since you are looking for "lord of the rings" magic, have you considered looking at the new "lord of the rings" RPG that came out not too long ago? Does anyone know what system it uses?