Alternate Multiclassing: Gestaltation

[Abisashi]

I've been thinking about this for a while, so I thought I'd throw it out.

Premise: The current multiclassing system is unexciting in most cases. Multiclass characters are generally inferior, except when they are significantly better (this is less of an issue in 3.5). The most reasonable combinations are ones between similarly-focused classes, such as fighter/barbarian. A more balanced multi-class system would be desireable.

Correction:
1) Character level is no longer directly connected to class level(s). References to hit dice instead reference character level. Character level-based benefits/calculations remain the same (feat every 3, same XP table, etc.)


2) Character classes are gained by investing experience points into character classes. Multiclass characters determine benefits from each level by gestalting the benefits from each class at that level. For example, a 1st level fighter/1st level barbarian/2nd level rogue (who
started as a 1st level rogue) would have:
+1 BAB
+2 fort
+3 ref
The best of 6, 10, and 12 hitpoints, plus 1d6
rage 1/day
sneak attack +1d6
Skills as a normal 2nd level rogue; if skill points retroactively affect skills, the skill gain at 1st could go into any of the three classes skill lists, but the 2nd level skill points would go only in
the rogue list
etc.

2a) As noted above, skill points are spent as they exceed the current skill points at a given level; I think I have an easy fix that makes this much better, but I've just thought it up and need more time to be able to articulate it well.


3)The highest-level class is free; the second-highest class has each levels' xp cost increased by 500, the third-highest by 1000, etc. Thus, the above rogue has invested 2500 xp, and is character level 2, almost 3.

3a) If desired, the favored class of a race is not counted when determining when determining xp costs for multiple classes.

3b) You can cap classes at 20th level and force players to multiclass afterward. Do not use the epic BAB or save progressions, but still give players epic feats and ability points based on character level. Characters will fall behind epic characters at some point, but I don't know when. Some people may prefer the leveling off of the curve; others will not like it. Still, it's a strength of the system that it allows this variant on epic-level play.


4) Other things could be purchased for xp as well; for instance, bonus feats can be bought at a cumulative 400xp (400, 800, 1,200, etc), + 50 * min level to purchase feat in core D&D for a non-human, all-class gestalt character who recieves no bonus feats from his classes. (Weapon specialization costs 200 xp extra; spring attack requires dodge and mobility, and cannot be aquired before 6th level, so it costs 300 xp extra.)

5) Prestige classes require DM adjucation, but in general, they are not available before they would be in core, start gestalting at the earliest level possible, and cost 1,000 * (min level to aquire - 1). A prestige class first available at 6th level would cost 5,000, as it would normally.

Prestige classes are on a sepparate track from base classes for the purposes of increased cost to purchase.

The numbers might need adjustment, but I don't think they're too far off. I think this system breaks in the 2nd-3rd level range, but fixes after that.

Thoughts?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Gez and I talked about using Gestalt levels to solve the "multige" problem (prestige classes that effectively multiclass the character; like Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight). We didn't mess with the level/xp table though.

What we did was allow characters with levels of base classes to add a gestalt level every now and again. The version I like best is the gestalt-5 variant:

gestalt-5: A character can take one gestalt level after taking 5 levels in base classes. The gestalt level must be composed of two base classes, and the character must have at least 2 levels in each. For every additional level in a base class, the character may take another gestalt level.

So a rogue2/barbarian 3 could take a level of gestalt rogue-barbarian, then alternate base levels with gestalt levels.

Maybe it's because I'm familiar with this system, and unfamiliar with yours, but it seems clearer.

I can't really figure out how to apply rules 2 and 3 of your variant in game play (and 2a and 3a). How do players know when to level up their characters? What is the step by step procedure they follow? Are xp points lost when you pay for class features?

A step by step example with the rogue would be nice.

 

[Abisashi]

Example

A step by step example with the rogue would be nice.

Certainly!

Jack the rogue begins play as a 1st level rogue, as normal. Upon gaining 500 experience, Jack decides he wants a lot more combat prowess out of his rogue, and invests his 500 xp in a barbarian level (highest level class = rogue, so barbarian costs 500xp). He is half way to his second character level, but is now a 1st level barbarian/rogue gestalt. His fort save and BAB go up; his skills do not, because he's already spent 8 skill points this level, and barbarian only gets half as many as he has. His hitpoints go to 12, which is better than his 8.

Upon reaching 1,000 xp, Jack is a second level character, but this doesn't do anything for him. He has 500 uninvested xp.

Upon reaching 1,500 xp (1,000 uninvested), Jack decides that he needs to work on his rogue skills some more, and invests 1000xp in his second rogue level (Rogue is tied for the highest level, and thus does not cost extra). He spends his 8 skill points, rolls 1d8 for hitpoints, and adds another .75 to his BAB (you can do this without fractional progressions, but I don't recommend it), his reflex increases by 1, etc. Jack has 1,500xp, all of which is invested.

When he hits 2,500 xp, Jack decides that he needs a combat feat; He picks up a level of fighter. Because fighter is his 3rd-highest class, it costs 1,000 extra. He gets a fighter feat, but the rest of his benefits from being a fighter overlap with his other classes.

Upon reaching 3,000 xp, Jack is a 3rd level character and recieves a feat. He now has 500 uninvested xp (investment: 1,000 in rogue, 500 in barbarian, 1,000 in fighter).

Once he reaches 4,000 xp, Jack picks up another barbarian level (xp: 0 free, 2,000 in barbarian, 1,000 in fighter, 1,000 in rogue.) He rolls a d12, and if it gives him more hitpoints than his rogue d8, he uses its result instead of the d8's. His BAB goes up to 2 (from 1.75) and his fort improves.

-----------------

What if Jack had taken his 2nd barbarian level before his second rogue level? He would have rolled 1d12 and used that many hitpoints, and then rolled 1d8 when he got his second rogue level and used that number if it were better. He would have spent 4 skill points on the barbarian list, and then 4 more on the rogue list + the barbarian list.

3a) is currently broken, but I'll explain what it means anyway: If Jack were human, his first barbarian level is free (you ignore his rogue level, so he appears to have no class higher than 0). When he's going up to 2nd level with his barbarian class (assuming he went to 2nd with his rogue first), it only costs him the normal 1,000. That needs some fixing if we want to stay balanced against D&D. Also, The 'if desired' should have been 'if desired by the DM.'

I'm not sure the extra xp cost for additional classes needs to be cumulative; you get less out of each class you add (generally), so perhaps that is penalty enough.

If you have more questions, I'll be glad to answer them.

 

[maggot]

So a 10th level rogue can add a level barbarian for 500xp? Sure you don't get the skill points, but you get the speed and the rage and the FORT save (I think) and the BAB (again, I think), all for 500xp. I think that's a little cheap.

Or you could spend 500xp and take fighter and get a fighter feat (and maybe the fort and BAB increase). 500xp at 10th level is nothing, you get more than that from an average combat.

 

[Szatany]

Hey, that very similar to what I proposed on WotC boards. Check it out perhaps we can benefit eachother from discussing those rules.

New multiclass rules (for low-level games)

 

[Pyrex]

How do you handle HP when gestalting this way:

Example: 5th level Rogue decides to multiclass and take two levels of Barbarian.

Assumption1: All gestalt levels sink to the bottom, so his 1st & second Rogue levels become Rog/Bbn gestalt. If he then took level of Ftr his level progression would look like:

1 - Rog/Ftr/Bbn
2 - Rog/Bbn
3 - Rog
4 - Rog
5 - Rog

Right?

Or does it look like this instead?

1 - Rog/Bbn
2 - Rog/Bbn
3 - Rog/Ftr
4 - Rog
5 - Rog

1st level is pretty easy since your first HD is always max but in order to make the second level work I'm guessing you're going to have to record rolled HP for each level and then re-roll for the higher HD?

Oddly enough, in order to not make this overpowered, you have to allow for the potential of your HP going *down* when replacing your Rog d6 with the Bbn d12...

 

[Pyrex]

One other thought. Instead of tracking the XP costs as static amounts how about just using the standard XP table with a level adjustment?

i.e. Your primary class (and any racial HD) uses the base XP table.

For your second class, use the base XP table with a +1 LA (i.e., your first level in your second class costs 1000xp and so on).

For your third class, use the base XP table with a +2 LA (i.e., your first level in your third class costs 3000xp)

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

1st level is pretty easy since your first HD is always max but in order to make the second level work I'm guessing you're going to have to record rolled HP for each level and then re-roll for the higher HD?

Use the average value for new classes-- if you're adding Barbarian to Rogue, add +3 hit points. Of course, if you add Fighter later, you don't get to add any more.

 

[Elephant]

Use the average value for new classes-- if you're adding Barbarian to Rogue, add +3 hit points. Of course, if you add Fighter later, you don't get to add any more.

Hmm, interesting idea. You could also try adding one-half the die roll, rounded up. So in the Rog/Bbn example above, you'd gain 1-6 HP per Bbn level added (1d12/2).