Alternative Turning Mechanic

[Yair]

In a discussion on another forum, a "more balanced" turning check (i.e. turning undead) was suggested, namely having the undead make a Will saving throw with DC 11 + Cleric Level.
I like to implement this mechanic, as I think its simpler and matches the CR/cleric level better. However, I am not sure what other limitations the turning should have.
I was thinking of limiting the turning to a range of 15', i.e. making it a 15' radius burst effect. I figure this will make the "need to get close" motiff clear (that's how I imagine turning - it shouldn't work at long ranges!). This will also limit the amount of foes turned, making it less of a game-breaker effect. This is especially needed if one forgoes the "hit-dice turned" mechanics; one of the benefits of this system is that it more closely matches the CR, whereas HD do not, so I reackon that's a good thing.
However, considering reach, I thought of making it 30'.
I'm not sure either works well.

Any suggestions? Thoughts? Input?

 

[Ferret]

It's a nice idea but alot of undead don't work that way. Collosal skeletons can't be effected, it has to save against 19 at the lowest, with a will save of 18. The soonest the playing feild is even is 17.

 

[Yair]

I don't follow.

A 20 HD Collossal creature made into a skeleton, by 3.5 rules, will have a CR of 8 and Will +12. At CR 8, he is a likely opponent for a level 8 cleric. If he meets this cleric, he will have to make a Will save of DC 19, with a +12 to the roll. That means he needs 7+ to resist, so he has 30% chance to fail the check.
Not perfect, which I'd consider 50%, but then again using the original system an 8th level cleric could have only turned a 12 HD skeleton at best, very likely no more than 8 HD - namely CR 4, possibly CR 6.

In other words, the ability to turn undead skeletons is useless under the core rules except for skeleteons that pose no significant threat to the cleric, except in large numbers. If he is facing an undead skeleton which is a difficult challenge on its own (perhaps a leader), he cannot turn it.
Using the suggested alternative, the cleric has a good chance of turning the skeleton that matches his CR. Indeed, he has a 30% chance to turn a 20 HD (CR 8) skeleton. That seems to make more sense, although I agree the save seems slightly too hard (but a 20 HD skeleton isn't your garden variety skeleton).
If you take a Bodak (CR 8), with a Will +7, he needs 12+ to save so there is a 55% he will be turned. Things are much the same for other, more traditional, CR 8 undead. But a Devourer (CR 11) has Will +11, so he needs only 8+ to save, and the cleric has only a 35% to turn it. A Nightwing (CR 14) has Will +17; the cleric has a measly 10% to turn it. A Nightwalker (CR 16, Will +19) is completely beyond his power.

Clearly, the cleric now has a reasonable chance of turning creatures that actually pose a difficulty to him.
Of course, this may not always work. A vampire 6th level cleric (CR 8) with Wis 20 (reasonable, with the vampire's +2), has Will +10, so there is a 40% to turn it. 20% if you count the +4 turn resistance. But a 5th level fighter with Wis 10 (CR 8 too) will have only a measly Will +2, which means a 80% chance to turn it (60% with turn resistance).

 

[ichabod]

I analyzed some numbers on this, and I'd say drop the DC to 10 plus level. If you look at the expected number of undead with the expected maximum hit dice a cleric can turn, DC 10 + level give the same expectations at middle levels, and slightly better at high and low levels. This assumes one twist: you roll for each undead in turn, and stop when one makes the save. Otherwise the expected values for the save mechanic depend on the number of undead, whose distribution is unknown. The only place it's really off is first and second levels. The only old SRD monster that really screws up these expectations are the Nightshades, but any other high wisdom undead would also throw this off.

Now, this is not necessarily a simpler mechanic. It's more d20ish, and perhaps more balanced with CR. However, the normal mechanic requries a maximum of two rolls (by the player). This mechanic requires up to one roll per undead (by the DM). In general, I'm more in favor of the players making the rolls for their actions, the DM has enough to do.

I think perhaps some sort of attack roll would be better. That would also adjust for CR. Have it do lots (d8/level?) turning damage. Treat this as subdual, except when the undead would normally pass out, it is turned/destroyed.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Now, this is not necessarily a simpler mechanic. It's more d20ish, and perhaps more balanced with CR. However, the normal mechanic requries a maximum of two rolls (by the player). This mechanic requires up to one roll per undead (by the DM). In general, I'm more in favor of the players making the rolls for their actions, the DM has enough to do.

A will save by the undead (DC = 11 + cleric level) can be made into a level check by the cleric (DC = 11 + undead will save). Frex, an 8th level cleric vs an undead with a +12 will save could either try a level check (d20 + 8) against a DC of 23 (30% chance of success), or the undead could try a will save (d20 + 12) vs a DC of 19 (30% chance of failure).

Rolling until an undead fails a save... do you start with the toughest, and move down?

 

[AeroDm]

I toyed around with a similar mechanic because I found it was easier to turn high level vampires than it was to turn mid CR skeletons/zombies.

I had the same problem with the will save equating too many rolls, so changing it back to a level check seems appropriate. However, since the attempt is to scale it to CR, you could always consider _using_ CR. Granted CR is a weak mechanic and often fluctuates, but it more closely represents what you want. Either way, I'd add in the cleric's charisma modifier to the roll/DC. Finally, instead of a 15' burst you could try a 60' cone (or something similar). This would represent the cleric presenting his holy symbol out to an area and infusing it with the divine might of his deity.

 

[KB9JMQ]

Bump to keep this topic going.

I do not like the current system and have been waiting for someone to come up with any kind of opposed roll mechanic for Turning.
Everytime I have brought it up here everyone wonders what is wrong with the current system which I think is to complicated.

I like the Will saving throw idea you presented Yair.
To me it has always seemed that turning is a battle of wills so to speak.

 

[dok]

I like the idea of a saving throw for undead vs. turning. However, I agree that adding more dice rolls is not a good thing. What about simply allowing _intelligent_ undead a Will saving throw (DC 10+ cleric level + Charisma mod?). Failure means normal effect, while success means the effect is weakened; undead that would be commanded/destroyed are rebuked/turned, and undead that would be rebuked/turned would be treated as "shaken" (even though they're normally immune to fear effects).

Too much, too little, too wierd?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Any suggestions? Thoughts? Input?

I like the idea. Especially because it means no table to refer to, and it is easy to remember.

I think you ought to include Cha mod in there as well though - keep Cha important for clerics!

I might be tempted to use a ST of 10 + Cha mod + half cleric level. This stops things running away with impossible DC's at high level, keeps it useful at low level and - ta dah - matches the monster manual way of setting DC's for monster powers.

I think I'll start using this idea in my campaign with the new cleric - the turning attempt will be a 30ft cone burst.

Cheers

 

[Yair]

It is true that this mechanic means the DM has to throw many saving throws, which is worse than having the player make one roll. However, it is not any worse than many spells that the cleric will cast, so I don't think it's too bad.
Not that this makes it any better; it just won't slow down combat significantly beyond the "usual" amount.

While it is possible for the player to make a level check instead of the undead making a will save, it is less "d20ish", and also does not change the basic problem - the need to roll all em' dice. Personally, I actually prefer the DM to make the rolls, as it allows me to fudge them.

Rolling each one until one makes it... interesting. The problem is rolling each one in turn is actually slower than rolling a bunch of dice and seeing how many passed the DC. Still, a very easy mechanic that seems to have good results...

As for including Cha modifiers, well... Including Cha mod may overly increase the DC, as effectively you add cleric level (x 1.5) instead of (X 1) or something like that - it scales with level. It also makes the Will saves of the existing undead, I think, too weak for comfort. I admit it is very tempting.
This may be offset by the 1/2 cleric level, though. So while 10 + cleric level + Cha mod seems too high, 10 + 1/2 cleric level + Cha mod might actually work...
Thanks

Making only intelligent undead make the save... would mean the cleric auto-turning non-intelligent undead, no? I think that makes turning way too powerful.

Well, in my campaign it seems it will be a Will save DC 10 + 1/2 cleric level + Cha mod, with either roll-till-fail to 60' (start at closest, for simplicity?) or a 30' cone.
Thanks everyone.