Alternative Turning Mechanic

[Kerrick]

Yeah, I'd like an update too, since there are so many ideas getting tossed around. I ran the numbers last night, and I discovered that a cleric with average Cha (15) has a 50/50 chance of turning an undead of his HD only if the undead has a +0 Wis mod, all things being equal (IOW, if the undead has no modifiers to its Will save, and neither it nor the cleric have items, spells, etc. increasing their ability to turn or resist being turned). Problem is, only unintelligent undead have +o Wis mods.

I forgot about the 10+Will save being nonstandard; you could use 1d20+Will instead. I think Cha should factor in there somewhere, though...

I thought about adding +1 TR/4 HD (except for templates, since they automatically gain +4 TR), but this put the undead's Will saves way too high, so I ditched it. Another problem I found with my system, after running some numbers last night, is that a cleric with 15 Cha needs a 14+, most times, to turn an undead of equal HD. Not good. 1d20+level+Cha mod vs. 1d20+Will might be the best way to go here, and then apply a cap to HD turnable - that way, the sides would be a bit more equal (the cleric might actually end up on the better end).

But why the heck didn't they include the vampire's TR in the statblock when they did it with the vampire spawn?

Beats me.. they didn't do it in the first MM either, which probably means it's an erratum no one caught.

 

[Mordane76]

Now, I've been reading all this, and it's all very interesting...
But I do wonder, because I just haven't seen anything mentioned on it -- will these changes affect how it's decided if a cleric turns or destroys? A lot of numbers seem to be going into all this, and I haven't seen how this will affect that part of the turn mechanic (if it will at all).

Of all the proposals so far on turning changes, I like Kerrick's the most so far -- it's elegant, it's fairly simple. My only input to it would be as follows: if you go the route you suggest (1d20+level+Cha mod vs. 1d20+Will, with a cap to HD turnable), I would say that Turn Resistance should apply as HD in this instance - a creature with Turn Resistance cannot be turned by a lower-level cleric because it turns as a higher HD creature, and then not apply the TR on the opposed check.

 

[FrankTrollman]

But I do wonder, because I just haven't seen anything mentioned on it -- will these changes affect how it's decided if a cleric turns or destroys?

Every other time the idea has been floated, the concept has been that creatures which fail their Will Save by more than a flat number are destroyed. I assume this time will be no different.

I would say that Turn Resistance should apply as HD in this instance

Turn Resistance is a kludge to keep people from destorying undead creatures at the level they are supposed to be a minor threat. Since this idea is jacking over the Undead Hit Die table entirely in favor of Will Saves (which are more closely related to CR) - Turn Resistance is not needed.

-Frank

 

[Grayhawk]

As an aside, could someone update what the "current" system is in reference to this thread. i am getting a little lost as i follow its progression as to what has been ruled a good idea and what has been cut out.

I don't think a general consensus have been reached. Some prefer the undead to make a will save - me, I want to put the check in the hands of the cleric's player.

Also, I think that before you (or anyone) can decide on a mechanic, you'll have to figure out what you want from the change.

It seems that many here are attracted to a more 'balanced' way of turning - 'balanced' in this case meaning the cleric should be able to turn undead of his own CR about 50% of the time. As some undead have much higher HD than CR this is impossible by the core rules.

While I think that that's a worthwhile goal, I'm mostly into finding a simpler, more elegant method that I can use on the fly, by only using the cleric's and the undead's stats.

I'm also looking for a way of doing it with just one roll.

And while some seem to be in favor of only linking the turning to will save, I don't mind the HD having an influence as well (as some of the previously un-turnable (due to high HD) undead suddenly become very easy to turn).

Where you stand on this is possibly a matter of flavor and personal preference:

A Gray Render Zombie has a CR of 6 but 20 HD (and a will save of +12) - how easy do you feel it should be to turn it?

I seldom use CR myself, but I guess that making it possible to turn a GRZ by someone less than 16th level (the current lowest possible) should affect it's CR?

Honestly, while looking at this from several angles I'm afraid that it creates more problems than it solves. That said, here are my current ideas:

The turning's AoE is a 30 feet cone.

(To restrict the possible number of affected undead.)

The maximum HD affected are cleric's level + his cha bonus.

(Because cha should be in there somewhere, and because I believe it adequately mimics 3.x and earlier editions way of having the maximum HD affected being cleric's level +4.

The cleric makes a level check (d20 + cleric level) vs a DC of 11 + undead's will save. All undead who's DC are beat are turned.

(Because it's more fun for the player himself to make the roll that determines the outcome of his action. Letting it only be only one roll fastens the pace.)

The biggest problem I see with this method, is that the high HD undead are still being hard or impossible to turn, especially with a low cha score... (not that it bothers me a whole lot, as I think the system works OK in most instances. Having a simple system that only 'breaks down' at the extreme ends of the range (like with the GRZ) but works with most basic encounters is preferable to me, compared to a clunky system that works all the time).

I'll be glad if someone can point out any faults with my system and maybe even offer a workable solution, especially one that incorporates the concepts above (putting a single roll in the hands of the cleric, etc).

 

[ciaran00]

Unlike saving throws or skill points, there is no level-attained bonus the cleric could apply to a standard turning check. However, this is how I do it:

Cleric rolls a d20 + 1/2 level + Cha against a DC of 10 + 1/2 Undead Hit Dice + Undead Wis. If the Cleric's and Undead's stats are the same, then the cleric is able to turn Level +5 undead max. The "1/2 level" bit can be adjusted for your campaign...

So, against mindless undead, the cleric has a better than 50/50 chance of turning. Against intelligent undead he may not be so lucky because Cha is probably not as high priority for Cleric as Wis.

I use Turning Damage the same as PHB 3.5, though I don't give Clerics a times/day they can turn... just once/encounter.

ciaran

 

[seasong]

I like this version:

1. The cleric has a number of turnings per day.
2. A standard action allows the cleric to either turn undead in a 10 ft radius (centered on the cleric), or a 30 ft cone.
3. The DC is 10 + 1/2 cleric level + CHA.
4. Undead who fail the save are treated as turned. Undead who fail the save by 10 or more are destroyed.

As for rolling for all of the undead, this is no worse than a 10d6 fireball and a room full of rogue-2 kobolds.

Thanks, Yair!

 

[Yair]

The version I am currently negotiating with my players is
Area of effect is 5'/level radius emanation. Cleric rolls 1d20 + 1/2 Cleric Level + Cha modifier, with DC=10+Will modifier. Number of undead is limited by area alone, I'm still thinking about any maximum HD limit.
He can turn undead/day as per core rules.

Yes, it means undead are turned/not-turned in blocks (either all ghouls in AoE are turned, or all are not turned). That is the price for few dice-rolling, and after much thought I decided I am willing to go with that. Anything to speed up combat, which I find way too slow.
I am not at all certain about the 5'/level radius; it was one of my player's suggestion. I am not sure it works.

Anyways, those were some great ideas. Thanks. Keep them coming.

P.S, I don't have time to do the math these days (busy at work), and probably won't decide until I do...

 

[seasong]

At 5 ft/level, you're talking 100 ft in all directions at 20th level. If that's good for you, then it shouldn't be a problem...

But even a 20 ft radius is pretty big. You might try the usual method for wall spells that can be altered into spheres: 1 ft/lvl. That gives a decent area (adjacent) for the low level cleric, and the equivalent of massive reach at higher levels.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I like this version:

1. The cleric has a number of turnings per day.
2. A standard action allows the cleric to either turn undead in a 10 ft radius (centered on the cleric), or a 30 ft cone.
3. The DC is 10 + 1/2 cleric level + CHA.
4. Undead who fail the save are treated as turned. Undead who fail the save by 10 or more are destroyed.

As for rolling for all of the undead, this is no worse than a 10d6 fireball and a room full of rogue-2 kobolds.

Thanks, Yair!

Um... that's really small. The default Turning Attempt out of the PHB is a 60 foot burst. I don't see any reason why that should be reduced in any way - has anyone noticed the area of effect on Turning to be too large?

As a side note: I don't think maximum hit dice are really needed anymore, as even an 8th level Cleric is going to watch some of those skeletons make their saves or be only turned.

-Frank

 

[seasong]

Um... that's really small. The default Turning Attempt out of the PHB is a 60 foot burst. I don't see any reason why that should be reduced in any way - has anyone noticed the area of effect on Turning to be too large?

These new rules for turning are more powerful. There is no limit on how many HD of creatures can be turned, nor any limits on how big a bad guy can be taken down by a roll of '1'.

A 60 ft burst with no HD limit represents an unholy number of undead that can be turned.

-seasong