Alternative Turning Mechanic

[Flynn]

What about Rebuke/Command Undead?

Good afternoon, Gentlemen,

I assume that you have also used these methods for the necromantic enemies that rebuke or command vast hordes of undead with the same relative ease that good clerics turn or destroy them. How does this method work, in your experience, in the hands of an evil cleric?

Thanks,
Flynn

 

[ichabod]

The version I am currently negotiating with my players is
Area of effect is 5'/level radius emanation. Cleric rolls 1d20 + 1/2 Cleric Level + Cha modifier, with DC=10+Will modifier. Number of undead is limited by area alone, I'm still thinking about any maximum HD limit.
He can turn undead/day as per core rules.

Given those numbers, a typical clerice (DMG NPC) turns undead of their hit die 50% of the time, which seems reasonable. The only time it's automatic is 20th level vs. 1 HD, and the only time it's impossible is 1st level vs. 20 HD. I like this as well.

Yes, it means undead are turned/not-turned in blocks (either all ghouls in AoE are turned, or all are not turned). That is the price for few dice-rolling, and after much thought I decided I am willing to go with that. Anything to speed up combat, which I find way too slow.
I am not at all certain about the 5'/level radius; it was one of my player's suggestion. I am not sure it works.

This is where the problem comes in. This means that a 5th level cleric has a 25% chance of destroying all the 15 HD undead within 25 feet, which in the extreme case is over 1050 HD of undead. That I think is a problem. I like it having level dependent range, but I think a set cap on undead turned would be good. Perhaps (2 x level)/HD + cha bonus. Thus the typical 5th level cleric has a 25% chance of turning the two closest 15 HD undead within 25 feet, and a 60% chance of turning the 12 closest 1 HD undead in the same radius.

Thinking on it, you might want to put the cha bonus inside the division, so that high cha bonus doesn't let you turn a lot of really powerful undead.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Remember that a CR 20 Undead creature is usually going to have a Will Save between +17 and +25 because it has 32 or more hit dice.

Using 3.r stuff whenever possible, here's the pre-packaged Undead (using total Hit Dice + Turn Resistance):

Creature CR/Hit Dice/Will Save
Abyssal Ghoul 10/16/+12
Allip 3/6/+4
Banshee 17/26/+19
Bhut 9/8/+5
Blood Fiend 14/18/+13
Bodak 8/9/+7
Bone Naga 11/15/+11
Corpse Gatherer 19/30/+17
Crawling Head 20/28/+20
Crimson Death 11/13/+10
Deathbringer 17/30/+19
Devourer 11/12/+11
Effigy 17/27/+20
Famine Spirit 19/32/+20
Ghast 3/6/+6
Ghoul 1/4/+5
Gravecrawler 16/31/+16
Hullathoin 15/16/+13
Jahi 16/25/+18
Mohrg 8/14/+9
Mummy 5/8/+8
Nightcrawler 18/25/+23
Nightwalker 16/21/+19
Nightwing 14/17/+17
Quth-Maren 7/12/+9
Ragewind 19/31/+18
Shadow 3/5/+4
Skeleton (Wolf) 1/2/+3
Skeleton (Owlbear) 2/5/+4
Skeleton (Troll) 3/6/+5
Skeleton (Chimerae) 4/9/+6
Skeleton (Ettin) 5/10/+7
Spawn of Kyuss 5/6/+4
Spectre 7/9/+7
Ulgarstasta 11/17/+13
Vampire Spawn 4/6/+5
Wight 3/4/+5
Wraith 5/7/+6
Wraith (Dread) 11/16/+14
Zombie (Troglodyte) 1/4/+4
Zombie (Bugbear) 2/6/+5
Zombie (Ogre) 3/8/+6
Zombie (Minotaur) 4/12/+8
Zombie (Gray Render) 6/20/+12

OK, what do we notice?

First, we notice that effective hit dice doesn't have a damn thing to do with CR, while Will save rises almost equally with CR.

The discrepency here is that the largest difference between CR and Hit Dice is fifteen (The Grave Crawler), and the largest difference between CR and Will Save is the seemingly unkillable (and possibly misprinted) Zombie Gray Render at a mere 6 off.

The other thing we notice is that amongst non-epic creatures, there are only two anywhere which have more than 10 hit dice and turn resistance of any kind (the Grave Crawler and the Blood Fiend). Turn Resistance seems to be put in there as a grudge device to keep PCs from destroying undead with turning attempts. That being said - I believe that if we are suggesting simplifying turning attempts, we are also dropping the concept of Turn Resistance. A creature who in the previous system had turn resistance gets absolutely nothing in the new system.

So what kind of odds are you looking for?

If it's set to Will Saves - the average Undead Will Save is equal to its CR. So if you set the base Save DC as X + Character Level, an undead creature will be turned by a cleric of its level on X numbers out of twenty.

So if the Turn DC is 8 + Character Level, a Cleric will be turning Undead of her level approximately 40% of the time. If the Turn DC is 15 + Character Level, a Cleric will be turning Undead of her level approximately 75% of the time - and so on.

I definately suggest not allowing Charisma modifiers to directly impact Save DCs, as that doesn't scale properly. Similarly, giving synergy bonuses for skills or some crap like that would likewise undermine the process.

Having a Charisma based Turning Check, which augmented the base save DC like the current turning check would be fine.

And of course, now that each creature is making their own save - the whole concept of "maximum hit dice affected" should be dropped as well.

-Frank

 

[Kerrick]

I hate to be the one to point this out, but some of those numbers are wrong. I only have the MM, so I'll post those monsters...

Monster CR/HD/Will save
Allip - 3/4/+4
Ghast - 3/4/+6
Ghoul - 1/2/+5
Shadow - 3/3/+4
Shadow, Greater - 8/9/+7 (might as well throw that one in)
Specter - 7/7/+7
Wraith - 5/5/+6
Wraith, dread - 11/16/+14 (and that)
Vampire spawn - 4/4/+5

You're right, though - the Will save is nearly always within a few points of the CR, and the worst offenders are the ones higher up (which suggest a problem with the epic system, but that's another topic entirely).

Among the monsters I know of (working from the MM, MMII, and ELH), the only ones that have TR are templated ones; I suspect they were given TR only because the base creature will have a low Will save about half the time (more, if you're using character classes).

I definately suggest not allowing Charisma modifiers to directly impact Save DCs, as that doesn't scale properly. Similarly, giving synergy bonuses for skills or some crap like that would likewise undermine the process.

Having a Charisma based Turning Check, which augmented the base save DC like the current turning check would be fine.

I'm confused. Seems to me like these two statements directly contradict each other. First you say you shouldn't add the Charisma bonus, then you say it's okay. I'd say add it in. It gives the cleric a slight advantage at lower levels, but it tends to balance out at the upper levels, when he needs it more.

As for turning damage - any ideas? 2d6+Cha seems a little low; you wouldn't be able to turn a whole lot at higher levels, when you're fighting 15-20 HD undead. Level+Cha seems a little better, or maybe 2d6+level...

 

[FrankTrollman]

I hate to be the one to point this out, but some of those numbers are wrong. I only have the MM, so I'll post those monsters...

No. Those numbers are right - you are wrong.

The Allip has 4 hit dice and +2 Turn Resistance. So it's Hit Dice for the purpose of turning is 6. Similarly the Ghast has +2 Turn Resistance, so it has 6 hit dice for this purpose as well.

Among the monsters I know of (working from the MM, MMII, and ELH), the only ones that have TR are templated ones; I suspect they were given TR only because the base creature will have a low Will save about half the time (more, if you're using character classes).

Um... no. It's listed under "Special Qualities" - it doesn't get its own write up in the creature's text block because it is a standard ability - just like Damage Reduction in that way. Templates list the Turn Resistance in the text block because they don't have a stat block for it to be listed in the Special Qualities section of.

I'm confused. Seems to me like these two statements directly contradict each other. First you say you shouldn't add the Charisma bonus, then you say it's okay.

No. I said that adding the Charisma directly to the DC was a terrible idea which would break the level equivalency for the ability. After all, Charisma can rise faster than level in some situations.

I also said that a Charisma Modified test to do small alterations to the DC would be fine. So the current test can only add a few points to the character's level - and keeping the same chart to add just a few points to the DC would be fine.

As for turning damage - any ideas?

Turning Damage is completely unnecessary now that each creature gets a Save. The amount of creatures destroyed - especially for characters with amulets of turning and such - are going to go way down from the near 100% that it is now to some fraction. With only a fraction of the enemies running or dying there is no need for there to be a limit to the number of creatures that have to make saves in the first place.

-Frank

 

[Yair]

FrankTrollman, it was your post at another forum that made me start this thread. I'm glad you joined in.

While I agree with your basic premise, I don't quite agree with your mechanic.
1) The improtance of Cha to the turning must be maintained, or the cleric class becomes duller. Accordingly, I prefer DC=10 + 1/2 Clr Level + Cha modifier. While possibly less balanced, it is nonetheless better for flavor reasons.
2) Allowing each undead to save individually simply requires too many die rolls. I suggest instead to make the cleric roll 1d20 + 1/2 Clr level + Cha modifier, against DC=10+Will (the DM can still roll the save if wants to).
3) Allowing the cleric to affect all undead, without any HD limit, may make the cleric reasonably turn an atrocious number of HD in some circumstances. While this may not be overly felt in practice, I suggest a limit of (Clr level + Cha modifier) x2 HD turned.
I agree there is no need for maximum HD turned.
4) Given that the DC is what counts here, and not HD, it would make more sense to add TR to the Will save of undead against turning, rather than to HD.

Yair

 

[monkius]

While I agree with your basic premise, I don't quite agree with your mechanic.
1) The importance of Cha to the turning must be maintained, or the cleric class becomes duller. Accordingly, I prefer DC=10 + 1/2 Clr Level + Cha modifier. While possibly less balanced, it is nonetheless better for flavor reasons.
2) Allowing each undead to save individually simply requires too many die rolls. I suggest instead to make the cleric roll 1d20 + 1/2 Clr level + Cha modifier, against DC=10+Will (the DM can still roll the save if wants to).

I agree that the Charisma should be maintained as a factor. I like how it encourages friendly clerics rather than grumpy ones

One alternative to 1/2 Clr level would be to use the Cleric's Base Attack Bonus (from their Cleric levels only). So that would mean 1d20 + Cleric's BAB + Cha Modifier, against DC=10+Will.

Depending on how the numbers look, could always raise the base DC to something like 12.

 

[AeroDm]

One alternative to 1/2 Clr level would be to use the Cleric's Base Attack Bonus (from their Cleric levels only). So that would mean 1d20 + Cleric's BAB + Cha Modifier, against DC=10+Will.

Depending on how the numbers look, could always raise the base DC to something like 12.

That can get sloppy though. Remember the monk with the armed and unarmed atk bonuses? I'd try really hard to avoid such things.

As for the HD limit, what is the logic behind [cleric level + cha mod] *2. Is it just a number that works well or did you see some similarity in it that I am not seeing atm? Additionally, what is the range on this newer version of turning?

 

[FrankTrollman]

Here's what we are up against:

* Monster Will Saves approximately equal CR.

* Charisma Bonuses sometimes don't rise at all, and in some cases can rise by as much as +6 within a single level.

* Character Level rises exactly equally with the CR of the creatures you are supposed to fight.

---

While I am fine with a character who puts in a concerted effort to raise his Charisma gaining a benefit from doing so with respect to turning - there is absolutely no way that I would agree that such a character should gain the equivalent of twelve character levels vs. another character who did not.

I mean, if we are comfortable with a level 20 Cleric successfully destroying a Nightwing (and I think we are), then the potential would exist fo an 8th level character doing the same thing if Charisma bonus counts double compared to level. That's simply not acceptable.

---

There is another problem, of course: using powers where you don't roll any dice is kind of boring. And of course, killing creatures with powers where they didn't get to roll any dice is frustrating.

On the bright side, however, a "turning check" followed by a Will save could prevent both problems.

---

First the Cleric makes a Charisma Check - the higher he gets, the larger a bonus he gets to his DC (perhaps, 10 +1 for every 4 past 8 on the test - no limit). This keeps Charisma in the game without allowing it to dominate everything or push characters into the ability to vastly outstrip their character level in turning ability just because they have the Fire Domain. It also makes the Cleric player feel like he's participating in the action because he gets to actually roll dice.

Then the Undead make a save against the modified Cleric Level + Turning Result. Failure by more than 8 would result in destruction/commanding.

So the turning test would look like this:
Result / Base DC

0- / 7
1-4 / 8
5-8 / 9
9-12 / 10
13-16 / 11
17-20 / 12
21-24 / 13
25-28 / 14
etc.

OK, now Charisma is in the running, and it is balanced by level and has a more unified mechanic with the rest of the rules.

The turning check is still crazy, but at least it looks kind of like the jump test.

-Frank

 

[Yair]

One of the main advantages of the original suggestion is that it does not require a table. I'd like to keep it that way, which is why I don't like the "Cha check" approach.

How can a character get a +6 to Cha in one level? The only way he can do that is through heavy use of magic items.
That said, I agree that getting a +X to cha count as getting a +2X at turning might be excessive.
How about instead setting DC=1d20+Cleric level+1/2 Cha bonus (or 5+... or something)? Not clean, but at least no table...

The undead would then be turned if they fail the Will save (or 10+Will if the DM is lasy...). They would be destroyed if they fail by 10 or more. (Frank: is there a reason you suggest 8?)

I am against using BAB, for the same reasons AeroDm raises.

The reason for the specific limit to HD turned that I advocate is that in general undead's CR scales as HD/2. So a cleric would need to double his level to be able to affect the same "threat" to him. I add in the Cha to make it improtant in turning, and put it before the multiplication to highlight its importance and allow clerics devoted to turning to be able to increase their turning ability significantly.

As for the range... I don't know If we institute a total-HD-limit, the range becomes less of a balancing factor, and I'm considering just leaving it at 60' radius.
Without such a limit, or if a balancing factor is desired nonetheless, I suggest a 30' cone would be relatively limited in area, while maintaining good flavor.
The more I think about it, the less 5'/level makes sense. It's just too weak at low levels and too powerful at high levels.