Alternative Turning Mechanic

[Yair]

Hmmph. While I suppose such ideas could work out, they are just more complicated. I want things to be simpler, not to have to remember which undead are turned, staggered, and stunned, and which are only shaken and nauseated ("what was that penalty again?"). Way too many groups, and too many things to remember, for my taste.
Perhaps something simpler, like on failure they are stunned, on fail by 5 turned, on fail by 10 destroyed?
Or perhaps I should get used to Holy Word mechanics after all

The offer to allow 0 + Cha bonus turning attempts per day is tempting. It does make Cha important to turning, although not directly in the turning check. I am not sure I am pleased with having a Cha-determined ability that is not enhanced by high Cha, however.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I'd like less things to work lie the caster mechanic - where a single stat determines how much you can do something, and how likely it is to work, and how good it is when it does. I think that influencing just one of those things is plenty enough for a stat to do.

Stat bonuses are linear, but if you apply them more than once they become oddly quadratic.

-Frank

 

[Nail]

Hmmm. I hadn't concidered playing with the "Turnings per day" mechanic. Thanks, FrankT. Seems to me that saying you get 1 + Cha mod might be good.

I also hadn't concidered having a progression of effects: Shaken, Flee, then destroyed. It's a touch more complicated, but the flavor is better. Question is, is the flavor worth the (slight) additional complication.

Re: How Cleric's Cha increases with level

It absolutely true this will depend strongly on equipment and playing style. My assumption is that the cleric starts of with a +3 mod, so he's obviously put quite a bit into Cha (16 or 17!) already. Then the cleric, on average, increases that mod (+3) by +1 per three levels. IOW, at 9th level, the cleric's Cha mod is +6.

That's assuming maxing that stat, and I admit that the change is not continuous, but "episodic".

If you change the Cha mod increase to +1 per 5 levels, so that at 10th level the cleric has a (+3 +2 =) +5 mod, then his chance of turning UD of his CR falls from 43% to 39% (averaging all UD monsters in the MM).

IOW: The change is not very great. For most things at the Cleric's CR, he still turns them about 50% of the time.

Some examples:

Human skeleton vs. Clr 1: turned 50% of the time
Shadow vs Clr 3: turned 45%
Spectre vs Clr 7: turned 45%
Devourer vs Clr 11: turned 40%
Night Crawler vs Clr 18: turned 5% of the time.

This seems right to me.

Again, I'm assuming the model:
Cleric spends a turning attempt, UD in his Area of Effect must make a Will save. The Will DC is 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha. A failed save means the UD is turned, and flees.

 

[Nail]

double post ....slow internet

 

[I'm A Banana]

Including Cha modifier as a turns per day works, only now you're changing a LOT of things in comparison, and I'd expect the power of the turning to be rampped up significantly.

One of the many things that'll be impacted by this are the feats that allow you to use your turn undead attempts for other functions...though admittedly, this may not be a great thing to impact. More importantly, it'll impact how a DM designs adventures. As it sits now, the cleric can either be a great asset with turn undead (when facing a dungeon full of skeletons), or have their turning attempts be nearly useless. This will make the cleric either a tiny asset (when facing a dungeon full of skeletons), or still nearly useless....there should be some compensation for the times/day lowering, such as significantly ramping up the power, range, etc.

A gradiated effect still makes me reference a table to see what the effects are. It's unnessecarily complex. Give me one effect, and one CRITICAL effect that happens on an obvious result.

I also don't see how stats are jumping so dramatically, nor do I see the paladin as a significant problem (paladin's turning DC starts at 5, let's say, or turns as a cleric of half his level).

Still looking for that simple replacement rule...

 

[Nail]

... More importantly, it'll impact how a DM designs adventures. As it sits now, the cleric can either be a great asset with turn undead (when facing a dungeon full of skeletons), or have their turning attempts be nearly useless. This will make the cleric either a tiny asset (when facing a dungeon full of skeletons), or still nearly useless.....

I think you may be missing one of the key benefits.

This method of turning (a Will save) actually significantly increases the power of the cleric. Not only does this change turning from an "all or nothing" power, but this allows the cleric a significant and measurable chance to turn all undead, even very powerful ones. Think about that for a minute.

In groups of undead, this power increases the likelyhood of turning some fraction of them. The old way did not provide for this. In essense, this change takes away the "nearly useless" part of the complaint.

Finally, this method is more "d20", and thus allows us to design easily understood feats and magic that interact with it. The 3.5e turning mechanic does not do this.

For example:
- Perhaps 5 or more ranks in Knowledge(religion) increases the turn DC by +1.
- Design a feat or feat chain that improves the DC of the check.
- Other classes, such as paladins, that turn UD do so with a penalty, giving pre-eminence of turning to the cleric.
- Turning (channelling holy power) can do other things, depending on what the Cleric's DC is.

... A gradiated effect still makes me reference a table to see what the effects are. It's unnessecarily complex. Give me one effect, and one CRITICAL effect that happens on an obvious result.

Understood. Once we establish a basic check, it's easy enough to determine how "graduated" you want the effects. If you'd like, stick with: turned or destroyed.

Done.