Am I too cruel?

[s/LaSH]

It all depends on the player reactions. I've done some things that would make your deeds seem positively utopian, and I've done most of them directly to the players. They loved it. ("I see who floating dissected in a tank?")

And the paladin will never be the same...

I've also broken adventure climax guidelines, screwed with the balance of the game, and given out major magical items at low levels. The PCs are still terrified of many things (MOST things, come to think of it), and love playing up the angst-trip side of their horrible, horrible fates. I haven't had a complaint yet.

It helps to know the players, I suppose. Oh, and to give them an outlet for all the horrible emotions that must be boiling around inside them... it's fun to, every so often, throw in a stupid encounter like a room full of sixty zombies. Oh, how they laugh about that one. ("I think I broke a nail!") Or give their own actions some nice and gory consequences. (Ever see a naturally invisible creature torn open with a sword through the ribcage? I mean, torn nearly in half? That's what I had to describe. I think they set it on fire too.) Equality... it's something I always like to have.

 

[hong]

Re: Not really...

I told the players that each member of the family (Mother, Father, and some kids) were all tied to a post and on their knees amidst a pile of debris from their home. They also saw the goblin shaman gouge out the fathers eyes and eat them as the Mother and children were forced to watch.

Needless to say, the players charged in immediately to the rescue. And the goblin shamans first order in the fight was for his minions to put the family to the torch, and ignite the oil soaked kindling at their feet.

The result was that in addition to having players who were VERY motivated to act heroically, there was also a time limit on the fight (Can the brave heroes defeat the goblins before the family is killed by the fire?).

DAMN!

Stolen!

 

[jgbrowning]

If your players are no longer having fun, then yes, you are too cruel.

100% agree. Making someone cry is, IMHO, probably not enjoyable. Digging for visceral responses may not be the best thing with some people.

joe b.

 

[Gyoza sausage bun]

If characters are just as likely to find out they have a new nephew as that they're father has been murdered then you're not being too cruel is my rough rule of thumb.

Its very easy to turn a character into someone thats just not fun to play. I don't enjoy playing fatalistic suicidal characters for instance, destroy all my character's reasons for living and as a player I'll lose all interest in your game. Which is not to say that your plot was bad or anything.

 

[Fenes 2]

If your players are no longer having fun, then yes, you are too cruel.

Amen to that.

 

[Tsyr]

It depends on a few things.

First, how much does this hurt the player (not the character)? Some people really don't like you doing cruel things to their "family" like that. Others don't mind. What may be too cruel for one person may be fine for another. In this case, it sounds like you have players that do mind it.

This is sorta wrapped up in the whole "It's too cruel if your players fun factor is lowered because of it".

Second, how routine is this? I had a WW ST I won't play under because of this. Before I stopped playing with him alltogether, I stopped making a background for my character... My sister would be raped, my family tortured, their tounges mailed to me in a jar, my little brother brainwashed and made into a tool of revenge against me, etc. And I stopped spending background points too... That Resource ***** I spent so many points on? Gone (for keeps) in the first 30 minutes of a game session. That Node ***? Gone by the end of the second session. Kinfolk **? All murdered, by the end of the first session. And to top it all off, our characters would generaly wind up: Wanted by every law agency in the world, by every crime syndicate in the world, and by every supernatural group in the world, including our own, all at the same time.

That was not fun. I left, thankfully... I hear most of the other players did too... Last I heard, he was STing one-on-one sessions with his brother.

Mind you, you don't have to be near this cruel. But if it gets to the point that the players start to feel that the only reason for background is so that you can screw with it as plot hooks, you have gone way too far.

 

[Sammael99]

If I was a player and you were consistently messing up my character for the sheer fun of it (which it seems you're doing, to some extent at least... Aaaah come on, fess' it up ) I'd probably start messing up with the campaign to annoy you back... Acting irrationally, putting my finger where it hurts (like messing up that nice encounter you obviously spent a few hours working on, etc.) Would you enjoy it ? Probably not. Means they probably aren't either

I'm all for harsh choices and moral dilemnas, but you need to weigh in the other end of the spectrum as well : give them goals they sometimes achieve, not systematically turn their background over their heads, etc.

 

[Drawmack]

q) Am I being too ....
a) What do your players say?

That's the end of the discussion. You are there for the players. If you DM becuase you enjoy weaving a story line that the players explore and alter with their character, or because you like giving people something to look forward to then keep DMing. If your DMing because you like being god then it is probably time to give up the hat.

Everyone of my players has given me a background, not a single one has been used in game yet. I threw out a hook for one but the PCs ignored it.

When my players write a background it is so I can push their characters buttons. The villan doesn't have to mail the mother's tounge to the PC, he can just start talking about the PCs mom while doing vile things to a doll that resembles the PCs mother. For example:

Villian: You look a lot like your mother, slight of build, blond hair, blue eyes.
DM: The villian pulls out a doll matching his description.

Villian: I have met your mother she is a nice lady. Enjoys walking if I remember correctly.
DM: He bends one of the dolls legs the wrong way.

Villian: She has very beautiful hair as well.
DM: He holds the doll over a candle on his desk singing the hair.

etc.

So you can be vile and use the PCs backgrounds without abusing the PCs backgrounds.

 

[CCamfield]

Have you noticed your players creating new characters with backgrounds like "I'm an only child and my parents died when I was 10"? Because if they write up backgrounds for their characters, and you consistently sieze upon them to cause the characters pain, they're going to start doing that.

I've got a character whose background is like that, but I think it's because the player is new to pen-and-paper gaming.

He killed a wizard when he was young. (How unspecified, but I'm assuming that it was through treachery.) My, isn't the wizard's master annoyed that one of his pupils was killed...

That being said, I don't think it's particularly nice to figuratively burn down a character's background and salt the fields, and that's what I think KM did. The background sounds like it might have been set up for some rivalry and possible eventual redemption of the PC in the eyes of the villagers and his family, or perhaps a struggle over the inheritance, but that doesn't seem possible any more.

I know in the last game I was playing, I had some ideas on how it would be cool for my character's background stories to develop, but unfortunately the GM didn't follow up on those ideas (or do that much with them, for that matter). Do you folks think that that is an unreasonable approach for a player to take, to actually suggest plot ideas?

You don't think you're going over the line, but the game isn't supposed to be fun for just you.

This is one of the primary points made by Robin Laws in his Robin's Laws of Good GM'ing book. In fact I think he wrote something like the GM's goal should be to make sure the players are having fun.

 

[Ravellion]

I had several characters in the duration of two campaigns with one DM, and this is what happened.

Character 1: I created him, with background of a master who taught him the spells, his favourite temple to worship azuth etc.

He zapped me to another plane without acces to my spellbook, and without the possibility of getting a new one (in 2e spellbooks were really expensive) or going back to my home plane as a 4th level bard with the loremaster kit. My lore was also unavailable as this was another plane, and hence, my old lore was useless. Without my old master, I couldn't level up easily because he required training.

He apologised when I explained my POV to him, and he agreed that this was very harsh, and he didn't really know how important my lore ability was, and he didn't think spellbooks would be that expensive. So I made a different character.

2nd Character: Shorter background, but heavy ties with an organisation and a city he grew up in and spent all his life in.

Within 2 minutes (!) of playing I was kicked out of the organisation and forced to leave my beloved city. No ties with my organisation meant no leveling up whatsoever since they were the only ones that taught the skills. (some sneaky elf kit)

3rd edition arrived, new campaign.

My cleric lost all ties with my background (all my friends and tutors were dead within one session) except the nemesis I wrote into my background (my dad). He then took away all my money and equipment, and when I went searching for other temples of Heironeous, they were taken over by a rather vicious sect of olidammara worshippers. When my character died* I was happy.

*Forge of Fury Bridge : "Does it seem difficult?"
"(Dm checks in his module) No, not that difficult"
"I'll try and get to the other side"
"roll balance"
"16! Great! With armour check penalty that's 7."
"ohoh. Make a climb check"
"1"
(vivid description of my PC falling down a long long way)
"is my character dead?"
"er... yes."
(Me smiling and ripping up my character sheet, grabbing 4d6 happily)

Last character with that DM: Monk. At least no equipment to be stripped away.

He friggin aged me, taking away the good physical stats I rolled (the previous character had crap stats), by entering me in a magical sleep for 15 years. Of course, my character wanted to know if my temple was still standing, even if I already knew what happened to it. When the DM noticed that I wasn't surprised it wasn't there anymore, he wanted to know if I had read his notes while he went to the loo...

So, KM, the lesson here is not not be cruel, but not be universally and predictably cruel... players will get jaded as I did, or sad, sicne they never have the chance to build anything up, or angry preferring to take others' stuff with them when they know they will lose their stuff anyway.

Rav