Ampersand: The Bard (merged)

[Vael]

As I said before, the song of rest is not that great since a leader usually already uses his Healing Powers at a short rest. If you could rest 5 minutes than a 10 minute Rest shouldn't be a big problem.

My group doesn't allow that. The warlord does expend any remaining Inspiring Words before rest, but re-resting to recharge the leader's healing abilities is considered bad form in my group and will earn the DMs ire.

 

[Baumi]

My group doesn't allow that. The warlord does expend any remaining Inspiring Words before rest, but re-resting to recharge the leader's healing abilities is considered bad form in my group and will earn the DMs ire.

I don't think that it is bad form. It is even mentioned in the Short Rest Section of the PHB (Page 263) how you use Healing Powers in short rests so it's certainly not something that the Designers didn't thought off.

It's also fluffwise not a problem, you just take a long prayer or morale speech instead of 6 second "help us Bahamut". In one of my groups it helps our cleric to bring us closer to his god since we are more actively revering his god (In combat you are to occupied to care how the healing happens).

 

[Badwe]

proficient up to chainmail and shield (a bit odd), 5 skills as part of being a bard, 1 automatic and 4 chosen.

Just about everything they do is a song or somehow related to music, including song of silence and song of competence (once again the bard improves stealth by humming the mission impossible theme!)

 

[Rechan]

As I said before, the song of rest is not that great since a leader usually already uses his Healing Powers at a short rest. If you could rest 5 minutes than a 10 minute Rest shouldn't be a big problem.

Huh? I thought the consensus was that leaders weren't allowed to use healing powers during rests. I've seen so many DMs nerf that, I thought that was pretty much the rule.

What I do fear is that the ability to mutliclass multiple times might get us some broken combos in the hand of a Min-Maxer.

There's something you have to remember.

1) That's going to take a fat amount of feats. You have to take the initiate feat just to start doing it. Then you have to take the various feats to gain the powers.

2) A multi-class power swaps out a class power for one of the other classes. Which means that you've still got a finite number. Not to mention the level limits for the various feats (4th, 8th and 10th, IIRC).

Also, don't the feats swap your highest power? Meaning if you're 7th level, and you have multi-classed into two different classes, that you can only swap out your 7th level encounter power with one of the two, and that's it? Can you keep your 3rd level or 1st level encounter power a multi-classed one?

3) Stats and Implements. Many powers are keying off abilities that the bard player may not have focused. Warlord powers use strength to hit, many of the benefits depend on a hit. Barbs, Rogues and Rangers use Dex or Str. Wizards and Swordmages use Int. Clerics use Wisdom or Strength.

So if the Bard wants to grab more than one class, he's going to have to have some serious Mad to do so, in order to make the most of it. He would need his primary Bard stat (Cha), his secondary stat (Con or Int), and then a third stat for whatever class. And if he uses a class that keys of Cha, Con or Int, then he's limited by the overlap.

Finally, I'm not sure how implements work with multi-classing.

 

[zerotkatama]

As to Song of Rest, I think what it's actually trying to do is getting more mileage out of the healing surges used per short rest; i.e., making it so you don't have to use as much getting up to full.

Edit: N/M, totally missed the vein of the discussion.

 

[Frostmarrow]

As to Song of Rest, I think what it's actually trying to do is getting more mileage out of the healing surges used per short rest; i.e., making it so you don't have to use as much getting up to full.

Everybody together now:

Kum ba yah, Pelor, kum ba yah
Kum ba yah, Pelor, kum ba yah
Kum ba yah, Pelor, kum ba yah
Oh oh, kum ba yah!

 

[Cadfan]

HAlso, don't the feats swap your highest power? Meaning if you're 7th level, and you have multi-classed into two different classes, that you can only swap out your 7th level encounter power with one of the two, and that's it? Can you keep your 3rd level or 1st level encounter power a multi-classed one?

No. Multiclass feats swap out whatever you want them to swap out, except that the power you give up has to be equal or greater in level to the power you get. So no swapping out your level 1 daily power to get another level 9.

3) Stats and Implements. Many powers are keying off abilities that the bard player may not have focused. Warlord powers use strength to hit, many of the benefits depend on a hit. Barbs, Rogues and Rangers use Dex or Str. Wizards and Swordmages use Int. Clerics use Wisdom or Strength.

This is true. But charisma is used by the paladin and the warlock, and some powers don't require attack rolls. I don't think that there's a lot of potential for supercombos, but you could probably come up with something decent if you were willing to pay for it. Also, as the number of classes available increases, we'll probably see an increase in worthwhile multiclass options. For example, if the Sorcerer uses charisma to attack, that will open up an arcane leader multiclass choice. And having a nice fireball like attack or two might be really great for someone with so many ways to slide his allies out of the blast zone.

So if the Bard wants to grab more than one class, he's going to have to have some serious Mad to do so, in order to make the most of it. He would need his primary Bard stat (Cha), his secondary stat (Con or Int), and then a third stat for whatever class. And if he uses a class that keys of Cha, Con or Int, then he's limited by the overlap.

That's true.

Finally, I'm not sure how implements work with multi-classing.

They work so-so. Generally, a multiclass feat grants you the ability to use the implements associated with the class you're multiclassing into. Wands are used by wizards and warlocks, and divine classes wear their holy symbols instead of holding them. So implements won't be that much of a problem unless you're intending to play an instrument instead of use a wand.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

The trick to Bard multiclassing, as using feats to go into two new classes is a bit like overkill IMO, would be to take a series of multiclass feats on one hand, and then take the initiate feat for another class and then take a Paragon Path of that class. For one extra feat, you basically become triple classed.

Looking at the Bard's focus on Con, Int, and Cha, Warlock, Swordmage, Wizard and Paladin seem to offer some utility, while Rogue and Warlord have some synergy though I'm not really sure what you'd be gaining with these. The other Barbarian build(was it totemist? I forget...) based on Str and Cha might actually be a nice fit, and have some interesting flavor.

 

[RefinedBean]

I didn't see any sort of Bardic Knowledge, which was my (only) favorite part of the Bard in 3.x

Shouldn't be hard to emulate, though. Everything else makes me wish March was here sooner...I really, really want to play a Bard, it's the first Leader class that's really piqued my interest.

 

[Shroomy]

I didn't see any sort of Bardic Knowledge, which was my (only) favorite part of the Bard in 3.x

Yeah, it looks like they nixed it all together, which makes sense IMO. Why have a competing knowledge sub-system when the class has access to all of the relevant skills, as well as having more opportunity to boost existing ones or gain new ones via feats. IME, 3.x bardic knowledge either morphed into a gimped version of the standard Knowledge skill check or was just used as substitute for them.