An alternate ranger class ???

shaman74

First Post
This idea came to me after hearing one of my player complaining about the ranger favored enemy ability.
It kicks in only when the DM want's it.

I do think that the ranger by Pathfinder rpg is far more acceptable than the old 3.5 and, God help us, the 3.0 mediocre class, but after looking for an alternative for favored enemy, I came to realise that many people has a different view on the ranger class. Some have even redo the class completly... and some have... made some good alternative.

So what I propose is this:

1- Post the url or the text of your new alternate ranger class, or at least, the one you use, if you do... and

2- If you dislike favored enemy, by what ability or power do you replace it ? (Keep in minds that favored enemy in pathfinder is much more powerfull than in old 3.5).

What all that in here, people in search of an alternate ranger class might find something here.
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So far, I, do not have a perfect replacement for favored enemy. Something similar to the 4th edition ranger with a "quarry like" ability that scale with levels should be nice. However, if I do that I will have to rename it cause the quarry word is already sude by the pathfinder ranger class.

However, two alternative for the ranger class that seems good are those found here:

http://www.pathfinderdb.com/campaign...nia/533-ranger

http://www.pathfinderdb.com/campaign...ule/478-ranger

More old, but inspiring is this one:
http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Ranger

Come on guys, and lets make this thread something great !
 

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favored enemy in pathfinder is much more powerfull than in old 3.5
Not really. All it added was an attack bonus (equal to the damage bonus). It's a buff, and a decent one, but nothing that makes it a powerful ability.
Add in the Favored Terrain, Quarry, and flexible Hunting Companion abilities and it's a solid class that's a great hunter (solo or on a team).

Honestly, I think Trailblazer's ranger is stronger due to better spell casting (caster level = 1/2 class level, uses the Druid spell list, spontaneous casting of all readied spells, and up to 5th level spells).
Still not the strongest class, but a solid and fun one with a lot of good options for most situations.
 

This is based on something we came up with for a homebrew d20 fantasy game (kinda a blend of Starwars Saga, 4e, and Pathfinder). I have modified the write up here for Pathfinder. In theory, it just replaces Favoured Enemy and leaves the rest of the class unchanged.

Favoured Enemy (Ex)
A ranger specializes in hunting certain creatures. Usually, these are creatures that he hunts throughout his career. However he can also apply his knowledge of stalking and observing his prey against other creatures when he needs to. Favoured Enemy consists of two related and overlapping aspects.

Hunter's Foe: At 1st level a ranger chooses a creature type (and subtype, if indicated) from Table: Ranger Favoured Enemies. Against creatures of this type, he gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls as well as the following skills: Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, and Survival. In addition, he can make knowledge checks about them as if trained. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level a ranger chooses another foe. In addition, at each such juncture, his bonus increases by +1 (+2 against two foes at 5th level, +3 against three foes at 10th level, and so on).

Hunter's Prey: Once per day, a ranger can choose a creature type (and subtype, if indicated) from Table: Ranger Favoured Enemies. Against creatures of this type, he gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls as well as the following skills: Perception, Stealth, Survival. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level this bonus increases by +1. In addition, the chosen creature type counts as a favoured enemy for effects that depend on that designation (such as an experienced ranger's Quarry abilities). The bonus lasts until the ranger uses this ability again. If the ranger chooses one of his favoured enemies as his prey, the bonuses stack.


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So, basically, the ranger has the same bonus against all of his chosen foes rather than a different bonus against different creatures. This bonus is about half of the maximum a RAW PF ranger would get.

In addition, he has a "floating" enemy which he can change each day and which gains the balance of the RAW bonus ("lets hunt some orc!"). If he applies the floating bonus to a chosen enemy, it results in the maximum bonus a RAW PF ranger could get (+10 at 20th level).

It puts some of the power back in the hands of the player, and makes choosing the long-term foes less agonizing (because you don't have to decide which ones get the better bonuses).
 


This is what I came up with instead of favored enemy in addition to a favored terrain bonus.

Quarry (Ex): Being expert trackers Rangers are adept at finding a particular adversary and dealing with them. To begin with a ranger must first designate their quarry. This can be done in one of two ways. The first, and easiest, way to choose a quarry is to study them directly. This requires 3 rounds of doing little more than studying the target. During this time a ranger may move and defend themselves, but may not undertake any other actions. After this time the target is considered quarry. The second way is by studying an area that the target has spent a significant amount of time in, such as a camp site, battle field or their home. You must spend 30 minutes studying this area after which you make a survival check DC = 15 + target HD. If the check succeeds you learn enough about the target to make them quarry. A ranger gains many significant bonuses against their chosen quarry. They receive +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks against their chosen quarry. They also gain a +2 bonus on weapon damage against such targets. At 5th, 12th and 19th level a ranger can make a choice than can choose to improve their quarry ability by either becoming better against a single opponent and gaining an additional +2 to all quarry bonuses or to increase the numbers of targets they can count as quarry. So at 19th level a ranger could have +8 to a single quarry or +2 to 4 quarry targets or any combination in between.
 

First part of my revised Ranger, from page 1 of my Aurelia setting and HR thread in this forum
Second part of my revised Ranger, same page

I don't replace Favored Enemy in Aurelia, per se, but I did give Rangers in Aurelia the option of forgoing one or more of their extra Favored Enemies and associated FE bonus increases, to instead gain Ranger Talents from a list of one or two dozen options, as indicated in the first post I linked to (note that most of the class details are in spoiler blocks, so you'll need to click the spoiler button to reveal the rest of the text there).

If you wanted to use my version of the Ranger in your campaign, it would be a simple matter to let Rangers trade their 1st Favored Enemy for a Ranger Talent, if desired.

Also, my version of Favored Enemy (modeled after the 3.0 version as with most of my material) has the addition of applying to attack rolls and AC against the Favored Enemies. It's not much of an improvement, but it does make it more worthwhile when facing those opponents, and I beefed up the 3.0 Ranger in several other ways anyhow. An array of Battle Style options instead of just TWF, some Speed Style options for greater speed or sneakiness, Shield Other on the animal companion once per day, bonuses to the animal companion at upper levels, more Ranger skill points, two extra feats, Spot Weakness for more accuracy (and thus better Power Attacking capacity or similar), etc.
 
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I don't think our tastes really match, because I think both 3.5 and Pathfinder instituted some general power creep. I don't find the Pathfinder class to be weak, and think that the 3.0 class was only mildly subpar (in the same way that most 3.0 martial classes were weak compared to Cleric and Wizard). However, I might as well bring what I have to the table.

My alternative 'ranger' class is intended to fix the primary problems with the 3.0 class as I saw them: too tied to a particular flavor, multi-class masquerading as a base class, unnecessarily closed certain desirable concepts (that later had to be opened back up by creating special PrCs), awkward combination of legacy powers unrelated to any mythic archetype, and front loaded with powers. The new 'Hunter' class is intended to fix those problems, and not the problems you have. As such, you'll probably find it 'weak' because it doesn't balance against the other classes you have - it balances against the classes I have in the particular sort of campaign I run.

I'm generally happy with the class and its well recieved by those that play it, so I think I'll only make small tweaks. If you wanted to play a classic D&D 'Ranger', you'd probably multiclass into some spellcasting class (Shaman, Sorcerer, or even Cleric) as appropriate to the particular flavor you wanted to capture, and then likely run up the 'Practiced Spellcaster' feat tree. A more popular build than that is to multiclass with Rogue in some mixture and build a 'Undead Hunter' that can sneak attack undead.

In any event, I don't expect anyone here to take the class as is given the way D&D has gone since 3.0, but some of it some people might want to borrow.


Hunter
The world is a dangerous place and only the strongest survive its trials. In nature, the weak are killed so that the strong may survive. At the top of every food chain are the hunters. The hunter knows its prey and its habits. The hunter chooses and stalks his prey. The hunter uses its wits to and skill to place itself in the most advantageous position. Then with quiet swiftness and ferocity, it deals the killing blow and ensures its own survival. The sentient races are at the top of every food chain, and they too are not with out hunters.

Adventurers: The ordinary hunter in a society typically specializes in the killing of animals to provide food and hides. But there are more dangerous sorts of game that often think of people as being prey. In every society there are a few individuals who specialize in hunting down and protecting against the depredations of these would be predators. Frequently, those called to such professions carry grudges against certain types of creatures and actively seek them out. All too often, members of a race turn against their own kind and must be captured or destroyed. Many magistrates and law enforcing beings are of the hunter class, as are often bounty hunters, assassins, and bandits.
Characteristics: The hunter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and capable in combat. He is particularly skilled with bows and other ranged weapons. His skills allow him to survive in many environments, to find his prey, and avoid detection. He also has special knowledge and understanding of certain types of creatures. This knowledge makes him more capable of finding and defeating those foes.
Alignment: Hunters can be of any alignment. Many have no particular philosophy on life except to earn themselves a living plying their trade. Good aligned hunters see themselves as the protectors and benefactors of the weak and innocent. They hunt to provide their families and comrades with food and clothing, and to destroy rabid or evil creatures which would hunt them. Lawful hunters see themselves as guardians of society and enforcers of the law. They are often specialists in hunting members of their own species as they track down lawbreakers in order to bring them to justice. Chaotic hunters often hunt for the thrill of the hunt, ranging far and wide in the hopes of finding new and exciting experiences, and new and more dangerous game. Evil hunters see themselves as predators that prove their innate superiority through killing, or who improve the breed by culling away the weak. Often they specialize in hunting others of their own kind, and become feared assassins or rampaging serial murderers.
Religion: Although many give their loyalties or at least some service to patrons of the hunt, hunters can have almost any sort of religious belief depending on their personality and character. For many hunters, their vocation is merely a profession, not a calling and as such their worship and adoration can be given to almost any deity.
Background: The profession of hunting is almost always learned through a mentor, often beginning at a very early age. In most cases, this mentor is a parent or guardian, but some societies may have guilds of hunters which recruit apprentices. More advanced societies may have many specialist guilds and professions, each teaching the skill of hunting a particular type of game or foe. Magistrates of various types may exist under a variety of names – constable, sheriff, reeve, watchman, guardsman, and many others – and older magistrates may teach the skill of tracking criminals to novices, or possibly even special academies will exist for training these skills. Primitive tribal societies may be largely composed of hunters which they rely upon to provide food. More advanced military units often train hunters in the role of specialized scouts or commandos. Organized crime syndicates may employ hunters as thugs and hit men, and their may even be well organized and secretive guilds or clans of assassins in some societies. And there are many other paths to becoming a hunter. In short, the class of hunter is one of the most varied roles which a character can have.
Races: All races have hunters, especially those living in the remote and more wilderness regions. Elves in particular are legendary hunters, since their natural skill with the bow, keen senses, and great agility complements the methods of the hunter. In fact, a large percentage of the elfin warrior class is actually composed not of fighters but of hunters.
Classes: Hunters seldom have conflicts with a particular class, but benefit with association with all of them. Most often their strongest disagreement is unexpectedly with fighters whose approach to combat they often find too unstealthy and straightforward. Conversely, Hunters often get along quite well with stealthy Rogues and multi-classed Hunter/Rogues are not at all uncommon. Hunters also get along well with Explorers, and often share much the same outlook on life if not necessarily the same goals. Multi-classed Hunter/Explorers are also quite common. In some cultures there are often secretive traditions of Hunter/Shamans, who form deep relationships with the creatures that they hunt and sometimes protect.

Table: The Hunter
Code:
Level	        BAB	Fort	Ref	Will 	Special
1	+1	          +2	+2	+0	Track, 1st Favored Enemy
2	+2	          +3	+3	+0	Bonus Feat
3	+3	          +3	+3	+1	Lethality +1
4	+4	          +4	+4	+1	Bonus Feat
5	+5	          +4	+4	+1	2nd Favored Enemy
6	+6/+1	          +5	+5	+2	Sure Shot (+30) 
7	+7/+2	          +5	+5	+2	Lethality +2
8	+8/+3	          +6	+6	+2	Bonus Feat
9	+9/+4	          +6	+6	+3	Strike Vitals +1d8
10	+10/+5	          +7	+7	+3	3rd Favored Enemy
11	+11/+6/+1	+7	+7	+3	Lethality +3
12	+12/+7/+2	+8	+8	+4	Bonus Feat, Sure Shot (+60)
13	+13/+8/+3	+8	+8	+4	Camouflage
14	+14/+9/+4	+9	+9	+4	Strike Vitals +2d8
15	+15/+10/+5	+9	+9	+5	4th Favored Enemy, Lethality +4
16	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+10	+5	Bonus Feat
17	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+10	+5	Hide in Plain Sight
18	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+11	+6	Sure Shot (+90)
19	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+11	+6	Lethality +5, Strike Vitals +3d8
20	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+12	+6	5th Favored Enemy, Bonus Feat

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Hunters have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Dexterity is important for a hunter because hunters tend to wear light armor and because several hunter skills are based on dexterity. Also, the hunter’s bonus feat selection favors ranged combat. Strength is important because hunters are often forced to engage in melee combat, and also need to be able to carry large amounts of equipment and their trophy with ease. Several hunter skills are based on wisdom, and a high intelligence will make the best use of a hunter’s diverse skill list.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements: Dexterity 7 and Strength 7

Class Skills
The hunter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (str), Craft (int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal(Wis), Hide(Dex), Navigation (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nature)(int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Porter (Str), Ride (Dex), Run (Str), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex), and Survival (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st level: (7 + int modifier) x 4
Skill Points: 7 + Int modifier

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A hunter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor and shields.
Track: A hunter gains Track as a bonus feat.
Favored Enemy: At 1st level, a hunter may select a type of creature as a favored enemy. Due to his extensive study of his foes and training in the proper techniques for combating them, the hunter gains a +1 bonus to bluff, intimidate, listen, sense motive, spot, and survival checks when using these skills against this type of creature. Likewise, he gets the same bonus to weapon damage rolls against creatures of this type, and further may make critical hits against creatures of that type even if such creatures are normally immune to critical hits. A hunter also gets the damage bonus with ranged weapons, but only against targets within 30 feet (the hunter cannot initially strike with deadly accuracy beyond that range).
At 5th level and at every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the hunter may select a new favored enemy, and the bonus associated with every previously selected favored enemy goes up by +1. For example, a 15th level hunter will have four favored enemies, with bonuses of +4, +3, +2, and +1.
Table 1-2: Hunter Favored Enemies lists possible categories for a hunter’s favored enemy.

Table 1-2: Hunter Favored Enemies
Code:
Type	Examples
Aberrations	Beholders
Animals	          Bears
Beasts	          Owlbears
Constructs	Golems
Dragons	Black dragons
Elementals	Xorns
Fey	Dryads
Giants	Ogres
Humanoid Type*	Goblinoids, Humans, Lizardfolk, Elves, etc.
Magical beasts	Displacer beasts
Oozes	Gelatinous cubes
Outsider Type*	Genie, Celestials, Infernals, Abominations, etc.
Plants	Shambling mounds
Shapechangers	Werewolves
Undead	Zombies
Vermin	Giant Spiders
*Hunters may not select “humanoid” or “outsider” as a favored enemy, but they may select a more narrowly defined type of humanoid or outsider.

Bonus Feat: At 2nd level, 4th level, and every 4th level thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th and 20th), Hunters gain a bonus virtual feat. These feats are only effective while the Hunter has an armor check penalty no worse than -4. Hunters may use these virtual feats as perquisites for regular feats, but if circumstances cause the hunter to no longer be qualified for their virtual feat, then they will no longer be qualified for and have access to any feat which depends on them either. The bonus virtual feat can be chosen from any on the following list which they meet the requirements for: Alertness, Big Game Hunter, Blind-Fight, Combat Intuition, Combat Reflexes, Dead eye, Death Blow, Dodge, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Expert Tactician, Far Shot, Full Fisted, Great Fortitude, Hunter’s Instincts, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Mounted Combat, Mugger, One Shot One Kill, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Run, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Sniper, Spring Attack, Stone Cold Killer, Swift Tracker, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Zeal.
Lethality:At 3rd level, whenever the hunter provokes a massive damage save on a favored enemy, the DC of the massive damage save is increased by +1. Every four levels thereafter, the DC increases by an additional one.
Sure Shot: At 6th level, a hunter gains such skill with ranged weapons that they are able to make precise shots an additional 30 feet further than normal. This allows them to inflict damage otherwise restricted to shots made within 30’ out to 60’. Damage in this category includes damage from the point black shot feat, sneak attack damage, and the bonus damage to the hunter’s favored enemies. At 12th level the maximum range extends to 90 feet, and at 18th level the maximum range extends to 120 feet.
Strike Vitals:: At 9th level, the hunter becomes particularly adept at hitting vital areas of his target and does a bonus 1d8 damage whenever he scores a critical hit. The bonus rises to 2d8 at 14th level and to 3d8 at 19th level.
Camouflage (Ex):A hunter of 13th level or higher always treats the available concealment of a terrain as being one step better. Even if the terrain doesn’t grant any cover or concealment, the hunter may still attempt to hide as if the terrain granted minimal concealment necessary to hide.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):A hunter of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.
 
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A few things to mention, Celebrim.
1) Your table's missing a 'tab' between the BAB and Fortitude lines, offsetting most of the table.
2) ....proficiency in MARITAL weapons? Really?
3) Strike Vitals wasn't detailed, so we don't know how that's supposed to work.
4) Not sure what Hide in Plain Sight does in your rules beyond the obvious.......especially combined with your Camouflage ability. Seems that your Hunter can hide anywhere, any time, without anything to actually hide behind....... Just standing in an empty room or on an empty road he can disappear?
5) Hard to evaluate out of context, but I suppose you bumped up Fighters and other mundane/mostly-mundane classes as well?

Compared to a core Fighter, I'd estimate that Hunter at roughly 18-28 feats or so worth of greater power........ Dunno how much you might've beefed up the core Fighter, though (the Hunter's definitely a lot more powerful than a core Ranger, though). Not sure if that's too much compared to the core spellcasters, but it is a lot of bennies.

Just trying to be constructive, pointing out what I noticed. It does remind me, though, that I oughta tweak my own Favored Enemy rules just a bit to better compensate for the lack of major skill-use against certain creature types ("you going to Sense Motive on that Gelatinous Cube, Mike? ....You think it wants to slide forward and digest you. Yup.")
 

A few things to mention, Celebrim.
1) Your table's missing a 'tab' between the BAB and Fortitude lines, offsetting most of the table.
2) ....proficiency in MARITAL weapons? Really?

Heh. Thanks, I fix that.

3) Strike Vitals wasn't detailed, so we don't know how that's supposed to work.

No problem.

4) Not sure what Hide in Plain Sight does in your rules beyond the obvious.......especially combined with your Camouflage ability. Seems that your Hunter can hide anywhere, any time, without anything to actually hide behind....... Just standing in an empty room or on an empty road he can disappear?

Yes. He is by that time a 17th level character. He basically can act as if he was wearing color changing Predator body armor, and disappear while in the middle of a group like a movie or comic book character.

5) Hard to evaluate out of context, but I suppose you bumped up Fighters and other mundane/mostly-mundane classes as well?

Yes. The other mundane/martial classes - explorer, fanatic (think barbarian), fighter, and rogue - are equivalently powerful. And while you'd need to tone down things a little if you took away easy access to magical healing, the 'Celebrim' martial classes are diverse enough and powerful enough that you could run a very low level magic game if you really wanted to. Though, as you point out, at high levels even 'mundane' classes would be basically comic book superheroes capable of doing superhuman things.

Compared to a core Fighter, I'd estimate that Hunter at roughly 18-28 feats or so worth of greater power........ Dunno how much you might've beefed up the core Fighter, though (the Hunter's definitely a lot more powerful than a core Ranger, though).

I'd estimate the Hunter is getting about 24-29 feats worth of powers. The 'Celebrim' fighter gets 16 bonus feats over 20 levels, plus the equivalent of about 9 feats worth of class abilities. The hunter gets 7 skill points to the fighters 4, but loses 1 hp per level and heavy armor proficiency. The hunter on the other hand has a good reflex save. The figher also has some exclusive or more or less exclusive access to feats either because of restrictions to fighters (weapon specialization) or the fact that no other class can effectively meet the steep prerequisites in terms of BAB and number of feats. So for example, if you want Avalanche Attack and Secret Technique (allowing you to essentially critical hit everything in your movement path), you pretty much have to play a fighter. Also fighters get both tactics and leadership as class skills, the only class that can do both easily. While fighter is still not a hugely popular class among players in my game, 'Celebrim' fighter is bloody effective (IME/IMO) and a fairly low level fighter with feats like all-out attack, improved flail, teamwork, and heedless charge can still be annoying to even fairly high level foes. There is nothing quite like having +15 or so to hit to keeping yourself relevant. No other class can do that sort of thing easily.

(Realistic examples for 4th level NPC fighters: +4 BAB, teamwork + surrounded foe = +8, 14 str = +2, offensive fighting stance = +2, masterwork weapon = +1, one of your friends with a tactics roll to give you +2 = +19 to hit, or +4 BAB, +4 heedless charge, +2 str bonus, +1 masterwork weapon = +11 to hit without the need for 3 or more friends.)

Not sure if that's too much compared to the core spellcasters, but it is a lot of bennies.

As you say, you have to go quite far to balance out with what a core wizard could do even in 3.0. However, for the most part, if you saw my full spellcasters, you'd realize that they were going the opposite direction. Druid is replaced by the less broketastic 'Shaman'. Clerics lose 1 spell per day from each spell level above 0th (thier progression starts at 0+1). Wizards and sorcerers have to deal with the fact that they can't 'cast defensively' to effectually elimenate AoO's and that they don't add spell level to the DC of saving throws (meaning high level targets usually pass saving throws). This is one of the reasons why I wryly smirk when I get reflexive and unreflected accusations that I think 'only spellcasters should get good stuff'.

Just trying to be constructive...

All criticism is welcome.
 

The Piazza • View topic - [d20a] Favoured Enemy re-training

Favoured Enemy Re-Training: Each morning, a ranger may choose to re-train his list of favoured enemies. He choose one favoured enemy type that he encountered in the previous 24 hours. His bonus against this favoured enemy type increases by +2. He must then reduce his bonus against his other favoured enemy types to restore the total bonuses to the pattern outlined in the class progression table. No bonus can be reduced by more than -2 each time favoured enemies are re-trained in this way.

For the purposes of this ability, an encounter is either three consecutive rounds of attack actions by or against that creature type (and subtype, if appropriate), or one minute of peaceful interaction or observation.

Favoured enemy re-training cannot be used to re-train favoured enemy bonuses received from other classes. However, those classes may have their own options for re-training their favoured enemy bonuses.

Example: Roderick the 5th level ranger has a +4 favoured enemy bonus against dragons and a +2 favoured enemy bonus against magical beasts. He just fought a giant, part of an advance raiding party. He knows more of them are on the way. After a night's rest, he re-trains his favoured enemy bonus to +2 against giants, losing the bonus against magical beasts. On day two, he seeks out more giants, but does not find the rest of their clan. He can't improve his bonus against giants in the following morning. On day three, however, he fights another giant. The following morning, he can increase his bonus against giants to +4. His bonus against dragons, previously +4, drops to +2, restoring the +4/+2 pattern allowed for a 5th level ranger.

It's basically an add-on to favoured enemy, so it isn't permanently circumstantially awesome or useless.
 

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