An end to scry-buff-teleport?

[JohnSnow]

Clearly the physics of the D&D world are not the same as the physics of the real world.
When a 100 foot fall is not fatal on a consistent basis for a sizable amount of the population, then it is entirely resonable for characters in that world to willingly jump off of 100 foot tall cliffs.

When the absolute worst injury that you can suffer and still live can be completely healed with about 5 days of bedrest, then horrible injuries are not as crippling as they are in the real world. In the real world, a sword impaled through a leg would easily take a 2 months or more to heal, and might be permanently crippling... the the world of D&D, no sword wound is going to take more than a few days to heal.

If your characters are playing as if they exist in the physics of the real world, then those characters are meta-gaming, and not playing true to the world of their experience, the world of D&D.

A 15th level fighter that refuses to jump down a 100 foot tall cliff is metagaming as much as the character that attempts to mine saltpeter and sulpher to make gunpowder.

Sorry, but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

It's in fact so ridiculous that I can't take it seriously. Anybody who brings this attitude to a game is basing their character's perception of in-game reality on the fact that they (the players) are playing a game.

That IS metagaming, pure and simple. And if you won't take my word for it, I'll borrow a definition:

In role-playing games, a player is metagaming when they use knowledge that is not available to their character in order to change the way they play their character (usually to give them an advantage within the game), such as knowledge of the mathematical nature of character statistics.

 

[WizarDru]

While at first I found the tactic disconcerting, I eventually realized (particularly after following Piratecat's story hour) that requiring its use was a far better tactic than simply ruling it didn't work. I'd rather grant my players the ability to do a thing rather than remove it arbitrarily. I certainly don't fault anyone for saying 'this is too much' and removing or limiting it...but that's not my approach. There are/were several tactics I used.

BBEG's often work through obfuscation and lies. In my current Shackled City game, the players have virtually no idea who the Cagewrights actually ARE. Scrying them requires at least some idea of who they're targeting, when they're in a place where they CAN be scanned. Piratecat once used a brilliant job of trickery when he had an evil NPC give the name of a good NPC nearby to the party as his identity. When they tried to scry on him later by name, they got the wrong guy. Frequently they encountered bodies possessed or animated by the bad guys that made finding the real BBEG much harder.

I made the various threats the players handled at later levels (and all the way to 28th level) spread out and requiring things like Teleport to function. Some BBEGs had Teleport abilities of their own, too...in one case the players gave up when they found that knowing where the BBEG was NOW didn't mean he'd stay for more than 6 seconds after they arrived. After a quick game of teleport hop-scotch, they ran out of the ability to trace him using the B-S-T method. They found another way and found it very satisfying when they outwitted him.

Having villains who are coordinated enough to try and split the party across a continent or mutiple planes is not unknown. Sending players to fight the BBEG on his own demi-plane, where he controls the ability to teleport has happened. But on other occasions, BST has worked exceptionally well. Bounty hunters have been found. Kidnappers have been stopped. Evil doers found in their lairs and shown that they can't hide from justice.

All of this, of course, makes the blatant assumption that BST's effectiveness is absolute. It is not. The players have successfully used it, but that didn't make the assault on a demon lord any easier. It got them safely into fighting position...but that doesn't make it an easy fight. Catching the evil wizard Boris unawares may be possible (though with some buffs reaching 24 hour durations at later levels, it's unlikely to find a totally unbuffed BBEG), but catching the ultraloth or ancient red dragon with his pants down? Much less likely.

Personally, I don't think that B-S-T needs to be removed, but it wouldn't hurt to implement some of the spells that have been introduced in the various supplements afterwards that blunt it's edge slightly. Stuff like teleport alarms or teleport shunts that don't prevent the spell from being effective, but do change the certainty of it's effectiveness never hurt.

And of course, you have things like the lead lining defense and this little ditty from Teleport: "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

There are ways right in the RAW of 3.5 to stop the B-S-T tactic if the DM so desires.

 

[Rel]

I tried to make it clear earlier that the snarky, insulting posts were not going to be tolerated. I'm going to try one more time. Think REALLY carefully before you post next time because any further violations are going to be dealt with severely.

 

[robertliguori]

Sorry, but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

It's in fact so ridiculous that I can't take it seriously. Anybody who brings this attitude to a game is basing their character's perception of in-game reality on the fact that they (the players) are playing a game.

Well... no. They're basing their character's perceptions based on the rules of the game universe. The rules of the game (and thus, the universe) are quite explicit; people can reach a certain level of achievement and physical prowess which enables them to survive quick dips in lava through sheer toughness. (That's what having 300+ hp means.) One can learn this by observing barbarians doing this, without ever knowing how much damage immersion in lava actually deals. One can simply ignore the ways the rules work in favor of making the D&D universe more similar to ours. However, at the extreme high levels, characters cease to resemble normal humans in their limitations in more or less every way.

D&D past about level 5 ceases to resemble what we know as reality. Accept this, or play Iron Heroes instead.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

If you're a Planescape fan, maybe you should concentrate on Epic Level play

Of course, 2e Planescape assumed characters of low level were regularly hopping around on the planes. There are 1st level Planescape modules, after all . . .

 

[JohnSnow]

Well... no. They're basing their character's perceptions based on the rules of the game universe. The rules of the game (and thus, the universe) are quite explicit; people can reach a certain level of achievement and physical prowess which enables them to survive quick dips in lava through sheer toughness. (That's what having 300+ hp means.) One can learn this by observing barbarians doing this, without ever knowing how much damage immersion in lava actually deals. One can simply ignore the ways the rules work in favor of making the D&D universe more similar to ours. However, at the extreme high levels, characters cease to resemble normal humans in their limitations in more or less every way.

D&D past about level 5 ceases to resemble what we know as reality. Accept this, or play Iron Heroes instead.

Sorry, I beg to disagree. The game rules are not intended to remove the character from reality. And they never have been. And to back myself up, I quote from an EARLY source...

(Pardon the verbose prose...I didn't write it).

Hit Points

It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts befor being slain! Why then the increas in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses - and a commensurat increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

Harkening back to the example of Rasputin, it would be safe to assume that he could withstand physical damage sufficient to have killed any four normal men, i.e. more than 14 hit points. Therefore, let us assume that a character with an 18 constitution will eventually be able to withstand no less than 15 hit points of actual physical damage before being slain, and that perhaps as many as 23 hit points could constitute the physical makeup of a character. The balance of accrued hit points are those which fall into the non-physical areas already detailed. Furthermore, these actual physical hit points would be spread across a large number of levels, starting from a base score of from an average of 3 to 4, going up to 6 or 8 at 2nd level, 9 to 11 at 3rd, 12 to 14 at 4th, 15-17 at 5th, 18 to 20 at 6th, and 21 to 23 at 7th level. Note that the above assumes the character is a fighter with an average of 3 hit points per die going to physical ability to withstand punishment and only 1 point of constitution bonus being likewise assigned. Beyond the basic physical damage sustained, hits scored upon a character do not actually do such an amount of physical damage.

Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This character would have an average of 5 1/2 hit points per die, plus a constitution bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that would have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to the fighter's exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will b e covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points.

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeon Master's Guide, Revised Edition, December, 1979, p. 82.

Clearly the game rules were NOT intended to divorce the characters entirely from reality. If you think so, you ARE metagaming. Without magical protection, people can't go for a swim in lava, whatever the statistics on the character sheet say.

However, I'm willing to admit that's what the game has become to some people. Play your own way I guess.

 

[Hussar]

[quote&D past about level 5 ceases to resemble what we know as reality. Accept this, or play Iron Heroes instead.[/quote]

But, only for the PC's. For the rest of the world, it's assumed that physics work as usual. Either that or no one in the world ever breaks a bone. Ever. If you have a one eyed pirate in your game, you're breaking the rules. Any maimed character or creature is breaking the rules since there is nothing in the game that causes permanent maiming.

Etc. Etc.

 

[JohnSnow]

But, only for the PC's. For the rest of the world, it's assumed that physics work as usual. Either that or no one in the world ever breaks a bone. Ever. If you have a one eyed pirate in your game, you're breaking the rules. Any maimed character or creature is breaking the rules since there is nothing in the game that causes permanent maiming.

Etc. Etc.

Gygax addressed that as well, by the way.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

...
So a lot of the ideas put forth in this thread should be expounded upon and put to use.

Lets, see:

[snip]

Lower level teleports require fixed departure and arrival points, IE circles.

Higher level teleports can be free of fixed destinations, but makes you nauseous for 2d4 rounds.

What other ideas or spells?

Lets make this thread useful.

In my campaign:

Teleport and greater teleport have a location stone as a spell component. A location stone is a gemstone of at least 500gp value (for teleport) or 1000gp value (for greater teleport) which has had the teleport target spell cast on it.

Teleport target is a Sor/Wiz 3, Travel 3 spell which "ties" a gemstone to a physical location. It has a 1 hour casting time. Any interruption of the caster during that 1 hour causes the spell to fail.

When you cast a teleport or greater teleport spell, you don't get to choose the location per se - you get teleported to the location to which the location stone used as the spell component is tied.

If you use a location stone that you have created, there is no risk of a mishap. If you use a location stone that someone else has created, you roll on the mishap chart.

So if you want to teleport into the BBEG's lair - you have to have already been there, and stayed immobile in one spot for at least 1 whole hour. Or you have to have acquired a location stone tied to somewhere in the BBEG's lair by someone else (which involves a chance of mishap, and who knows exactly what location the location stone is actually tied to? An iron cage suspended above a lake of boiling lava, perhaps?).

And what happens if your wizard dies and the BBEG or his minions gets hold of all the location stones in his spell component pouch?...

Teleport retains its 100 mile/level range, but in addition it is a Personal spell, i.e. only the caster can teleport. Greater teleport has a target of "You and 1 creature per 3 levels", with Large creatures counting as 2 creatures, Huge creatures as 4, etc. That is, to teleport your whole party, you have to use greater teleport.

All creatures with "greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only)" as a spell-like ability instead have "dimension door (self plus 50 pounds of objects only)". They can still hop around in the local area as much as they want, but can't exactly travel long distances.

Finally, all creatures teleported by teleport and greater teleport are dazed for 1 round at the end of their journey.

In short, teleport and greater teleport have become good ways for the wizard or the party to run back to their base of operations when things go wrong, but they can't be used offensively as the end part of the S-B-T routine.

I've put in place similar limitations on the cleric and druid Conjuration (teleport) spells, and so far the scheme is working like a charm.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[I'm A Banana]

What's the counter? Seriously. How do you counter this spell? Ward against it? Now every single important character must have a spellcaster to ward him at all times against this tactic. By its very nature, the tactic calls for an absurdly high-magic setting.

Welcome to mid-high level D&D. Glad you could join us. We'll be serving punch from an extradimensional space.

You ward against it by using the same high-level magic your enemies are using: antimagic fields, illusions, mind blanks, etc. If you don't use it, it's like refusing to use a gun against people armed with heavy artillery: you will be crushed by superior technology.

Yes, that's limiting. Yes, it demands a certain style. No, that style should not be invalidated by 4e. Yes, 4e should allow people to go around that style more easily than they can now.

The magic system was invented for a GAME. The spells have limitations (or don't) based on their assumed use in the game. If WotC had foreseen the Scry-Buff-Teleport combo, they would have written the spells differently. The players are trying to use loopholes in the game rules to circumvent the story. That's metagaming.

The characters are making descisions based on what the characters are aware of. Bill the Wizard knows he can use his crystal ball to see things, use his teleport spell to go there, and use his arcane knowledge of the body and soul of creatures to prepare them for battle.

That's making an in-character decision. JUST LIKE spending 10 gp on a longsword is a decision made by the characters who are aware of what a longsword can do.

Your argument that "the characters are aware of the reality" is like trying to rationalize the D&D wealth-by-level rules to create a functioning economy. It's like PCs deliberately taking a 200 foot fall or going swimming in lava because they technically, by the RAW, have the hit point reserve to survive. At that point, they're metagaming a loophole in the game rules. In my opinion, it's the same with this spell combo.

It's not metagaming. The fighter who can swim in lava has survived the full brunt of a dragon's wrath and emerged okay. They also know the dragon's wrath is more potent than any inert puddle of melted rock. They take a look at that pool, knowing the things that have happened to them, and they know "I think I can swim that..."

It's not using any out-of-character knowledge or game rules knowledge. It's knowledge based on the nature of the universe the character inhabits.

I'm convinced that the teleport spell was intended as a travel spell to allow high-level PCs to circumvent boring treks through the wilderness - not as a "drop in your assault team on the bad guy" spell. I submit that if WotC had conceived of this problem in advance, they would have written some of the spells differently. And if it's being used that way, then one or more of the spells in question probably need to be rewritten to disable that functionality.

(As an aside, per-encounter balancing by itself goes a long way towards fixing this problem - since the PCs have no ability to "go nova" in an encounter).

I'm sure atomic energy was intended as a cheap, easily available fuel source, an alternate to oil - not as a "blow up Japan" bomb. I submit that if the scientists who unlocked Atomic energy had conceived of this problem in advance, they would have never published their findings. And if it's being used that way, then the science probably needs to be covered up to disable it's functionality.

None of that requires me to have any "outside knowledge." Intentions, whatever. That has been the way the fantasy world has worked, and that should continue to be a valid strategy in the next fantasy world (though I would not regret it if it was a LESS advantageous strategy).

Sorry, but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

It's in fact so ridiculous that I can't take it seriously. Anybody who brings this attitude to a game is basing their character's perception of in-game reality on the fact that they (the players) are playing a game.

That IS metagaming, pure and simple. And if you won't take my word for it, I'll borrow a definition:

It's not knowledge of mathematical character statistics. It's the fighter going "Hmm...the Terrasque stomped on my head and I'm pretty okay, still....yeah, I might be able to survive a dip in the lava!"

The character himself, comparing his own experiences, knows his tolerance for difficulty (and knows that it has only increased as he has endured more).

It's okay if you're not comfortable with that level of power in the game, but it's blatantly false to call it "metagame."