An epiphany

[Eternalknight]

I agree with Sigil. We are playing, at the moment, a D20 version of Warhammer Quest of our own design. We have only had one session, but man, it was the most fun anyone had had in ages!

 

[ThirdWizard]

To further clarify.

 

[FireLance]

I agree with der_kluge and ThirdWizard. There has been a subtle shift of power from DMs to players in 3rd edition. In my opinion, it is due to the following factors:

1. More consistent, better streamlined and unified rules. This leads to:
2. Players being able to know more rules and have a better grasp of them. Combine these two with:
3. More assistance and guidelines for inexperienced DMs in the form of character wealth guidelines, CRs for monsters, etc. and you get:
4. It is much easier for a player to become a decent, if not fantastic, DM if he needs to be. So what this means is:
5. The DM has become more of a "first among equals", DMing by the mutual consent of the group, rather than by default because he is the only one who knows all the rules and can run a fun game. So, to put it quite simply:
6. The DM has to keep his group happy or someone else will take over his job.

Vive la revolution!

 

[WayneLigon]

Old school feel is where the GM has more control over the game.
3rd edition tends to place more control in the player's hands.

Something like that. 1st edition feel is very much like a more pathological Knights of the Dinner Table episode. Never give the players an even break. They figure out a 'sure thing'? Screw it up. Take their gold. Teleport away all their magic items. NPC's can always do things they can't. They can never learn how to make simple Boots of Elvenkind even if they are mighty Elven wizards. You the GM have ultimate power over their stupid useless lives. Use it and make them suffer. It's the underlying subtext in almost every early Dragon article and essay, every early module and adventure. Tighten up. No house rules. If it's not in the rules, it must not be something you should be doing. All that third party stuff is inferior crap ruining the game. This is why the phrase '1st Editon Feel' pretty much guarenteed a 'no sale' from me until I read some of their stuff.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Something like that. 1st edition feel is very much like a more pathological Knights of the Dinner Table episode. Never give the players an even break. They figure out a 'sure thing'? Screw it up. Take their gold. Teleport away all their magic items.

So true. How many adventures started with something like "The PCs are poor and have nothing. If they actually have anything, have bandits steal everything they have?" And how many dungeon descriptions started off with a list of all the spells that didn't work while within it? These were some of my huge pet peeves and I have never run a game with a blanket ban on abilities just because the dungeon designer was too lazy to take them into account. And, I never will. This is why I didn't run published modules. The first adventure I ever wrote had a flowchart based on PC actions. I was 11!

Oops, ranted there for a second. I'm sure it was all wonderful for some people. But, that's just more proof for me that old school D&D was (as published) much more DM empowering, in a large way.

 

[haakon1]

just that you've missed quite a few of the "differents", IMO.

I agree with Rounser, about core WOTC products, but it's also different because of OGL. D&D is a lot of things now . . . vaguely broken/semi compatible rules for Star Wars, D20 Modern, Stargate, Call of Cthuhlu, lots of unnecessary WOTC supplements like Frostburn and Stormwrack, etc. And a million mostly unsuccessful settings and prestige classes for "real" D&D, as it gets Second Edition-ma-tized as Hasbro tries to milk it.

(If Hasbro would follow the practice of video game console manufacturers, and not over-milk the consoles (Core Books), making most of their money instead on a licensing fee from the game makers (module makers), and selling just a few first-party games (WOTC modules), instead of trying to messing with the operating system all the time (Stormwrack, 3.5 edition, 4.0 edition), I'd be happier with the OGL idea.)

The only stuff that feels "real D&D" to me is Goodman Games, Atlas Games, sometimes Necromancer, sometimes AEG, and sometimes Troll Lords. The rest mostly seems slightly off. Including Eberron.

 

[haakon1]

Countertheory...

"Old school" feel is the assumption, "if it isn't explicitly mentioned as something your character can try, you can't try it."

"New school" feel is the assumption "if it isn't explicitly mentioned as something your character CAN'T try, you can try it."

I couldn't disagree more.

Real D&D (first edition AD&D and OD&D) is completely open. The lack of coherent rules for each and every contingency meant players and DM's felt more free to make things up.

In 3.0/3.5 D&D, there's a rule for everything, and everything has its place. The time of, "Ah, roll below your Str and you jumped the chasm; if you fail, roll below your Dex to grab the cliff, so you don't die after all" as been replaced by the era of "Make a Jump check at DC12 due to blah-blah and blah circumstances".

Technical better rules, but they slow down the game, and I feel more quashed as a DM.

Very little difference as a player . . .

 

[haakon1]

Counter-countertheory:

New school - more stuff codified, therefore more stuff "off limits" because the rules have covered it and explicitly won't let you do it (or will imply that a crazy-high roll is needed, which amounts to much the same thing).

Old school - less stuff codified, therefore more stuff open to DM rules improv (and therefore player requests to do crazy stuff), depending on the DM.

Again, not necessarily good or bad; just different...and come to think of it, this is just a variation on der-kluge's original post theory.

Precisely.

 

[Numion]

More control or not, I've seen a lot more of AD&D and OD&D games totally out of control than 3E games. Monty Haul treasures, players arguing their way out of consequences, non-sensical adventures, etc..

 

[tetsujin28]

I think I've figured it out.

Old school feel is where the GM has more control over the game.

3rd edition tends to place more control in the player's hands.

This is my theory.

Discuss.

Nope. Other way 'round.